Broad Street Elite
Registered User
- Nov 9, 2011
- 4,159
- 4
Garbage.
It was not "understood". It was speculated and oft denied that there would be an amnesty and I challenge you to find any reputable source that calls it anything like known, understood, or obvious.
Secondly, right now there are more than 90 defensemen that average 20+ minutes of TOI. If you'd like me to calculate the average salary of those 90 defensemen I will, but I can promise you that the average annual salary isn't even remotely close. I could also focus on those that have reached free agency, but you'd still be wrong.
If you want to use hindsight to make yourself seem knowledgeable, that's fine, but just realize that most people see it for what it is.
No, the quality of the players doesn't mean ****. I'm talking about mathematical logic.It can when they're all terrible players. We're not talking about future core players here, we're talking about rubbish.
It was understood more than a year ago that there would be some sort of amnesty clause in the new CBA.
And it wasn't an overpayment. Go check out how much 20-minute defensemen are making post-free agency.
It can when they're all terrible players. We're not talking about future core players here, we're talking about rubbish.
NormMac said:He made a lot of short, efficient passes and was able to separate himself from forecheckers. He was able to anticipate the neutral zone traffic and and distribute the puck accordingly.
NormMac said:You're grossly misrepresenting what he did on the breakout. Those subtle plays are vastly more effective than low percentage stretch passes, but they are also less dramatic and noticeable, meaning a lot of Carle's work goes unappreciated by fans.
NormMac said:To suggest that Schenn, Grossman and Gervais are better puck movers is ridiculous.
Dude, I said good defenseman off their post-free agent contracts. 20 minute defenseman. Not all 20 minute guys make $5m, but get garbage like Scott Hannan, Matt Hunwick, and Derek Morris out of there. Some of those guys are RFA deals which is a different market. Some of them are forever-contracts back diving so that Duncan Keith's cap number isn't over $7m.
No matter how you cut it, there is no earthly way Carle is worth 5.5 million...or more than Coburn, for that matter. A LOT of those guys, besides Wideman, are clearly a step above Carle.
That list combines the good guys with the bad guys. The average falls in the middle, as averages tend to do. Carle himself falls into about the middle of the spectrum; not bad, but certainly not great. He simply doesn't deserve more than the average pay...certainly not 5.5 million.
Edit: Oh, and that isn't all 20 minute defenseman. That's all 20 minute defenseman who've hit UFA. About 20ish guys on 3 million dollar RFA contracts that play large minutes have been cut.
I don't know what to say other than maybe you weren't paying attention. Perhaps Carle is only average at defending the cycle, but he can transition the puck so the puck won't go right back into their own zone.I didn't see Carle winning a lot of (physical) puck battles against forecheckers. There were numerous times when the Flyers would be hemmed in their zone with Matt Carle on the ice. This notion that if only he was still here, the Flyers would be hemmed in significantly less is bogus imo. The guys we have now aren't any less effective at this aspect.
It's not simple D-to-D passes, it's clean, smart passes that smoothly direct the puck forward. It's how Carle was consistently among the leaders in even strength points for defenders. And if were so easy that "anyone can do it", why do so many of Schenn/Grossman/Coburn/Gervais's passes result in a stymied rush or turnover.That sounds like it's glorifying some simple plays. A short D to D pass may be subtle and effective at times, but it certainly isn't something requiring a specialized skill. Anyone can do it, no need to pay a guy >$5 mil for it.
It's not a fresh and objective to view exaggerate the skills of players on your team, nor is it fresh and objective to continue the unwarranted Carle bashing that was so popular on these boards. Gervais is a borderline NHL player, Schenn can't skate or handle the puck, and Grossmann can't pass and read breakouts.I know it sounds crazy...it goes against the popular perception of these players' roles and capabilities, but you know, I have spent a considerable amount of time focusing on these guys, trying to be objective. Some have shown surprising puck moving skills. Grossman in particular has been impressive in terms of his two-way game. I've seen him make quick, decisive puck moving/transition/breakout plays where I ask myself "Would Matt Carle do it that well?" and sometimes I have to say the answer is "no". I'm really impressed with him. Gervais has made some nice plays in skating or passing the puck out swiftly as well. Schenn too has shown flashes of being a capable puck mover. If you really look at it objectively, and ignore the perception and "role" that these guys may be labeled with, and compare the puck moving plays they attempt, I just don't see anything remarkably superior in what Carle does versus these guys. If you take a fresh, objective look, you might be surprised.
I don't get your point...players are more expensive when people overpay for them? That's a given.
That's what the market dictates.
And as I added in my edit, that doesn't mean those players are actually worth those cap hits.
Defensemen have always been at a premium, so if the team is going to keep going into the UFA market, or trade for players who likely will soon be UFA's, you're going to have to pay. It's hard to make a case that they're overpaid when it's everybody.
Some Dmen are worth overpaying for, like Suter or Timonen way back when. Guys like Carle, Wideman, Reasoner...not really.
Maybe if your team is capable of bringing up their own Dmen and is spending a reasonable amount on D to begin with...but for a team like Philly, dropping yet another big contract into another mediocre Dman isn't a good idea. That creates a situation where lots of money goes into an "ok" product.
And as I added in my edit, that doesn't mean those players are actually worth those cap hits.
Worth is determined by what the market bears, no? I would think the definition of a free agents "worth" is the price point at which market demand drops to one team. That's sort of a semantic position by me, since I agree with you that allowing Carle to make his bucks in Tampa was a prudent choice (and good on Carle for cashing in).
Then, by that definition, it is impossible to say anyone is overpaid? If it's fair game to suppose that a team made a mistake in hindsight to not sign a particular player, should it not also be fair game to say that the contract he received is an overpayment by comparing it to others of similar talent?