Player Discussion Mats Zuccarello Part II

[Chimpradamus]

This was me 5 years ago with Callahan, I was ignorant, angry, and not thinking. Yeah I still support Cally and follow Tampa, but not putting the Rangers before him.

Sure, but Callahan is not a guy you need to keep. He underperforms and isn't skilled enough. Where has he played in Tampa? What did he request in terms of money when he played in NYR? Straight down to the bottom 6, which says alot of how much many Rangers teams have sucked ass in the past. He has even been a healthy scratch nowadays. I have no problem with that trade, Callahan overrestimated his performance suited under Torts. Same with Dubinsky. Pretenders under Torts. All the work, not enough talent.

Callahan doesn't exactly have hands made out of velvet (to be diplomatic about it), he's a hard worker and a personality like standard cardboard. Zuccarello covers the hard working part, has much more sensible wrists and doesn't have a personality made out of cardboard. I don't care about your comparison, this is structural decision who to keep and who to trade.

Zuccarello has all great assests for a proper veteran, for a rookie to look up to, while giving monetary discounts to his team his entire career, to win the Cup. Apparently that is worth nothing in a weak draft. Ok. I strongly disagree with you. I don't know how you compare less complete players to Zuccarello.

For a normal European sports fan, keeping Zuccarello is a given. For an American numbers guy treating players like cattle, ignoring internal team culture, it's apparently a given to just throw him out. Disgusting.

If Zuccarello wants to stay and management ditches him, I'm done. If he wants to go, fine.

 

[Leonardo87]

Sure, but Callahan is not a guy you need to keep. He underperforms and isn't skilled enough. Where has he played in Tampa? What did he request in terms of money when he played in NYR? Straight down to the bottom 6, which says alot of how much many Rangers teams have sucked ass in the past. Hands exactly not made out of velvet, a hard worker and a personality like standard cardboard. Zuccarello covers hard workers, has much more sensible wrists and doesn't have a personality made out of cardboard. I don't care about your comparison, this is structural decision who to keep and who to trade.

Zuccarello has all great assests for a proper veteran to look up to, while giving discounts to his team his entire career, to win the Cup. Apparently that is worth nothing in a weak draft. Ok. I strongly disagree with you. I don't know how you compare less complete players to Zuccarello.

For a normal European sports fan, keeping Zuccarello is a given. For an American numbers guy treating players like cattle, ignoring internal team culture, it's apparently a given to just throw him out. Disgusting.

Zucc ending up on a cup contender could be the best thing for him right now, and then the Rangers can re-sign him in July if he wants to come back to NY. He has to understand it’s a business. Rangers are in a tank mode now, and need to move guys they feel can help get them assets to help with their future. Zucc and Hayes are the top players to make this happen.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Zucc ending up on a cup contender could be the best thing for him right now, and then the Rangers can re-sign him in July if he wants to come back to NY. He has to understand it’s a business. Rangers are in a tank mode now, and need to move guys they feel can help get them assets to help with their future. Zucc and Hayes are the top players to make this happen.

Like I said, according to me, it's all up to himself. Neither we or management should have a say about it. He has earned that right and that's me as a Euro speaking. For NYR's case, I hope he stays, for his case, I hope he goes to a contender. But I don't like the attitude from many fans that he's just some piece. He has earned a lot more respect than that dammit.

The obvious declining point is when there is zero loyalty between management and the players. Then you get a situation like in Toronto, with the Nylander holdout, because the player doesn't believe you and knows you're not credible as an organization. It's not only the players, it's the agents.

If NYR management goes against Zuccarello's wishes, I'm calling it, NYR will go into a joke of a franchise for many years.

 

[Leonardo87]

Like I said, according to me, it's all up to himself. Neither we or management should have a say about it. He has earned that right. For NYR's case, I hope he stays, for his case, I hope he goes to a contender. But I don't like the attitude from many fans that he's just some piece. He has earned a lot more respect than that dammit.

Honestly, I want him to stay also, he is a heart and soul guy. Intangibles are underrated and he has been a big part of that Top line success which has been one of the few bright spots on this team this year.

But like I said this is a business, and I learned that 5 years ago. Rangers have to look at their future. If they trade Kreider for one example, will be overly upset, but if it’s for the right reasons then you have to get over it.

 

[True Blue]

1. Team culture. Yzerman for Detroit, what did he mean? A huge lot, just by his presence. Working hard for the group and the team, leadership, sacrifice, igniting what it takes to win. If the whole roster is rotated out within 5 years, what do you have left in terms of team culture in the end, if you rotate all of it? Management is only a part of that and Hank doesn't have proper influence as a goalie. Compare Detroit and Edmonton. Detroit was competitive for a long, long time and could grow their prospects into greatness over and over again, while Edmonton killed them like weeds. And you want to gamble with team culture?

Team culture is being redone on the spot. And the leaders are Krieder and ZBad. They allow for the prospects to be grown and not thrust into roles they are not ready for.

This is not Edmonton as there is actually veteran leadership here.

3. Yes, let's bring more prospects into a team culture consisting of.... what? What cultural pillars do you have left? If you think Zuccarello is worth a pick in a weak draft, I don't know what to tell you. The first guy since forever worth the name of intangibles. Who has also proved he can perform in the second half of the season with spades, still.

You never know what you can unearth in drafts. There are also picks from drafts other than this one. He is not going to sign an off season deal on the cheap. He can bring back assets to an organization that is in the asset collecting mode. Kreider, ZBad and Staal provide intangibles. As does Henke.

If you trade him, good luck, you will suck a lot, because not enough of the roots are left to grow the tree. Just a prediction. None of the experience what it takes to reach a Stanley Cup final are left to teach, because the team is like an interaction between the industrial complex and the government. You don't know what anything is when you enter as a rookie in such a turbulent team as the NYR. It's a frigging roller coaster and then you need a skilled, smart and joyful guy to lead the way in his own way.

Again, what about Kreider, Staal, ZBad, Henke, Fast, etc?

If NYR management goes against Zuccarello's wishes, I'm calling it, NYR will go into a joke of a franchise for many years.

This is Zuccarello, not Brian Leetch we are talking about.

How do you think rebuilding teams replenish the farm system?

 

[Webster]

Something you should always keep in mind if you're into stocks:

It's bad business to trade a winner...

And I couldn't agree more with Chimp, the Rangers will go downhill for a long time if they do that. But a rental trade is okay if the plan is to re-sign him. It's not good to go from April to October without some real hockey games.

 

[True Blue]

Something you should always keep in mind if you're into stocks:

It's bad business to trade a winner...

Something else to keep in mind. The best value trades follow the age old standard of buying low and selling high.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Team culture is being redone on the spot. And the leaders are Krieder and ZBad. They allow for the prospects to be grown and not thrust into roles they are not ready for.

This is not Edmonton as there is actually veteran leadership here.

I beg to differ. I assume Zuccarello is still a huge focal point for this team. Every team needs a skilled, frenetic hobbit on the ice - and off the ice. Kreider and Zibanejad are the most productive at the moment, sure. But that's not the whole picture. When Kreider - Zibanejad - Zuccarello finally finds some chemistry, we should trade him for a lottery ticket? Not ok. Give the veteran hobbit some slack to adapt to his age. I know we should tank, but this hard? Trade Hayes, but not Zuke.

You never know what you can unearth in drafts. There are also picks from drafts other than this one. He is not going to sign an off season deal on the cheap. He can bring back assets to an organization that is in the asset collecting mode. Kreider, ZBad and Staal provide intangibles.
As does Henke.

We're not disagreeing it's a lottery then. Who knows? But you know the value you already have, that's a given. That's my point, it's not always a good idea to buy as many lottery tickets as you can, with all the resources that you have. You need to keep a distinctive, solid betting to not end up on the street. You think I'm joking with the Edmonton debacle of being a black hole of hockey for a long time? How do you grasp a team culture, if nobody is left to instill that culture into a new group? Generational change. A very important term that seems to be redundant in economical discussions about betting.

Again, what about Kreider, Staal, ZBad, Henke, Fast, etc?

I mentioned Hank, obviously, because he's the only piece remaining to influence a competitive culture for over a decade. Competiteveness and a team progression is not to be taken for granted. I think a part as of why NYR never won a cup during the Hank era is because there was never a core you could rely on. It never found home and it was never intact.

The reason I'm separating Zuccarello from those else is his charisma, hard work and skill. He eases other players in releasing the tensions from performing. He instills trying to have fun while it's another big game, it releases grips on sticks. If I wanted two veterans left to instill a team culture into a new team, it would be Hank and Zuccarello. Hard working, skilled but also caring about a team, in their own way.

 

[LORDE]

Can't wait for him to be traded so we can close this thread.

Players get traded. It happens. Gretzky did. The cap and the business of the league has changed... Zucc gave us a lot of great games/seasons/moments but the time to move on is here.

He knows it, we know it, his teammates know it, the press knows it and I'm sure as shit that GM Gorton knows it.

The whining about it by certain posters has been off the rails.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Can't wait for him to be traded so we can close this thread.

Players get traded. It happens. Gretzky did. The cap and the business of the league has changed... Zucc gave us a lot of great games/seasons/moments but the time to move on is here.

He knows it, we know it, his teammates know it, the press knows it and I'm sure as **** that GM Gorton knows it.

The whining about it by certain posters has been off the rails.

I can't wait to be done with the NYR franchise when NYR management don't see the much bigger value in keeping such a player as Zuccarello, to just continue to think you can luck out by continuing to buy over the hill UFA mercenaries and create a year to year, successful enviroment. We could in an essence both be waiting for this trade to happen. You're glad you got another lottery ticket, I'm glad I can feel completely done with this clown franchise, because things will never change in an entertainment industry, with a capital owner.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Again, what about Kreider, Staal, ZBad, Henke, Fast, etc?

One is not like the other. Staal? If we had another buyout, he would be long gone. Too bad our infinitely great leader considered Strålman to be a redundant piece. Motherf***ing shit, don't get me started about Dreary, Fumblez, Dreaden, Drunkelich, etc, etc, etc, etc. GREAT consecutive decisions from our leaders. Idiots! They would've been more successful NOT doing what they think they should do.

This is Zuccarello, not Brian Leetch we are talking about.

How do you think rebuilding teams replenish the farm system?

Because when I speak of Zuccarello, I speak of real intangibles. Not like the intangibles Drury apparently had, just because he worked hard and was born as an American, while his wheels fell off and he played dreadful, to the point where you wondered if he could even make a shift without falling over, or be in pain over every shot he ever covered.
[Mod]

 

[romba]

.... because things will never change in an entertainment industry, with a capital owner.

Just popped in to say A) Ownership is the least of the Ranger's issues at this juncture and B) What's a capital owner? Capitalist?

 

[True Blue]

I beg to differ. I assume Zuccarello is still a huge focal point for this team. Every team needs a skilled, frenetic hobbit on the ice - and off the ice. K

Teams need leaders in the locker room and the ice. Those come in all shapes and sizes. Not just frentic hobbits. And they have those here now.

You think I'm joking with the Edmonton debacle of being a black hole of hockey for a long time? How do you grasp a team culture, if nobody is left to instill that culture into a new group? Generational change. A very important term that seems to be redundant in economical discussions about betting.

No, I do not think you are kidding. I just disagree with the comparison

The reason I'm separating Zuccarello from those else is his charisma, hard work and skill. He eases other players in releasing the tensions from performing. He instills trying to have fun while it's another big game, it releases grips on sticks.

I understand, but his worth to a rebuilding team is diminished. However as one that can bring assets, he performs his final service.

Too bad our infinitely great leader considered Strålman to be a redundant piece. Mother****ing ****, don't get me started about Dreary, Fumblez, Dreaden, Drunkelich, etc, etc, etc, etc. GREAT consecutive decisions from our leaders. Idiots! They would've been more successful NOT doing what they think they should do.

I don't disagree, but that does not change what the right thing for the franchise is now.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Just popped in to say A) Ownership is the least of the Ranger's issues at this juncture and B) What's a capital owner? Capitalist?

A) That remains to be seen, I'm baffled you're already convinced you're in the green, just because the former GM was a disaster and B) capitalist = reducing living beings into selective, centralized, quantitative numbers, like logs and cattle. You could also call them systematical fallacies, if you like. It creates a tunnel where you disregard such things as team chemistry and team culture.

 

[Tawnos]

I love Zucc, but the exaggeration here is strong. There won't be lasting repercussions of trading him, whether he signs back here or not.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Heard the same bullshit about Callahan, they got better after he left.

Will never understand how someone could let a single player decide their fandom but to each their own I guess. Personally it would take some slimy Penn State Esque scandal to break out in order for me to renounce my fandom to this team, despite the fact that they’ve given me every reason to do so already.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Teams need leaders in the locker room and the ice. Those come in all shapes and sizes. Not just frentic hobbits. And they have those here now.

Yes, but...

I understand, but his worth to a rebuilding team is diminished. However as one that can bring assets, he performs his final service.

I don't disagree, but that does not change what the right thing for the franchise is now.

... but now his value has diminished. Zuccarello gave not one, but TWO hometown discounts to the franchise, overperformed and did his part - and then some, which is well known. All to try to win it all. Which is apparently now worth jack shit, when the smoke clears. Which means, any player henceforth - and their agent - know they would be an IDIOT to give a hometown discount to the NYR franchise, because empty words such as team loyalty are meaningless in the end. Which means NYR in the long run will not be able to get hometown discounts, because they could NEVER keep a winning culture, which incites hometown discounts (like the entire first line in Boston, as an example, a NYR pipe dream).

At best you retain a mercenary culture, where the players see the franchise as a temporary employer and try to enjoy their time playing hockey. HOW do you change that, when that team culture is settled once again? Another prayer for a player like Lundqvist, on a lottery ticket?

I might be exaggerating. But these kind of things add up. Players and agents aren't born yesterday. Why do you think Nylander held out for so long in Toronto? If you can't get your bang for the buck on a team, you will never win the cup. That includes the whole team. If Nylander would've believed in the team, he would've taken a hometown discount, but he didn't, because his father knows he's worth jack shit to the franchise in the end, from great experience. No mutual favours whatsoever, pure business, just as many franchises apparently wants it. If you are good enough, you might get a clause in your contract, that massah just cannot slap you in the face, whenever they feel like it. Great comfort.

If NYR culture is to keep it this cold, I'm not kidding it'll take 50 years to get a shot to win another cup, because you don't grow a culture with money, but sacrifice for eachother. That won't happen if you purely pay them to and just scramble a bunch of mercenaries together, like the old mercenary days that might return when Lundqvist retires, which the NYR did AWFUL to change during his career.

 

[YetAnotherNorwegian]

Ah, he'll get to win a cup and experience another city for a couple of months, then he'll be back where he wants to be, eating brisket on rye at Sarge's. No biggie.

 

[dangsLITE]

Out of curiosity, what players of Zucc's caliber or higher have actually been traded at the deadline then signed back with the team that summer? Like in the past 4-5 yrs specifically

 

[Wind Waker]

Good lord this thread is pathetic

 

[Webster]

Ah, he'll get to win a cup and experience another city for a couple of months, then he'll be back where he wants to be, eating brisket on rye at Sarge's. No biggie.

True that, no big deal. A trade will benefit both him and the Rangers. He'll stay in shape when going to the playoffs instead of messing around with a golf club, and the Rangers will get their pieces.

Then in July his agent can start negotiations, but not necessarily with the Rangers. I have a feeling Zucc wants a fair deal this time when it comes to the $$$.

 

[aufheben]

Next thread: Player Discussion - Mats Zuccarello: Part III