Marty vs Cory Part II (Mod Warning Post 1)

[NJDevs26]

plus Cory will probably get to play in hundreds more NHL outdoor games the way were going lol

I don't think we're getting another outdoor game in Cory's career considering they have to paper the building more or less just to get close to a sellout.

 

[Bleedred]

Ron Hextall had save percentages for a season under 900 for most of the 1990s. This was a goaltender who was considered a top 10 goalie during those years. He was also one of those goalies that didn't really change his style much and didn't increase the equipment all that much. This is what led to that dinosaurs extinction at the young age of 34.

This also led to Chris Terreri's extinction as well. Possibly even Fuhr and Barrasso when he came back after a year (though both of those guys were around 38 when they retired) Chris Terreri didn't really change with the times, unlike Sean Burke. Terreri was as good or better than Burke in the late 80s-early 90s. Burke had a longer shelf life, because he increased his equipment and changed his game. He had the longer career and posted better save percentages and every other category he was better than Terreri in during the late 90s and into the 00s.

Marty was one of the few that didn't change his style a whole lot, or his equipment (up until 2009 or so), that's why Marty is the greatest of all time IMO.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Roy is considered the best ever because of what he did in the playoffs.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Patrick Roy career GAA 2.50 sv pct .910 and he's in the convo for best ever...

Because most of his career was played in the late 80's/early 90's, when scoring rates are different.

You can't compare stats across eras.

EDIT: Read the next post, he nailed it.

 

[Jedi]

Patrick Roy career GAA 2.50 sv pct .910 and he's in the convo for best ever...

You cannot compare sv% across eras - Roy led the league in sv% 4 times. The highest sv% he had in those 4 seasons was .914.

He was 2nd twice - in '91 it only took .906 to be 2nd. In '02, it took .925 to be 2nd.

When I was a kid, .900 was a mark of excellence for goalies. It was an All-Star number. Nowadays, a .900 sv% means you completely stink.

Roy was top 10 in sv% an incredible 15 seasons. So with Roy, sv% stats do indeed tell the story of his greatness.

As someone above said, it's all about context.

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

W/L record is largely meaningless to me, personally.

If goaltenders (baseball pitchers, as well) had complete control over game outcomes, I'd agree.

Context is important.

Pull the goalie 5 minutes into the game and let me know what the outcome is 55 minutes later.

 

[Jedi]

Roy is considered the best ever because of what he did in the playoffs.

Roy's regular season numbers were incredible.

He'd be in the GOAT conversation even if he's only won one or two cups, like Hasek. Both Roy and Hasek were incredible regular season goalies as well.

This notion of Roy raising his game a lot in the playoffs is largely a myth. Sv% is the best stat for showing his greatness, despite his career sv% of "only" .910. To have 15 seasons is the top 10 is just ridiculous. Because to have that many elite seasons not only shows longevity and consistency, it also shows his play wasn't team-dependent.

 

[SeidoN]

Pull the goalie 5 minutes into the game and let me know what the outcome is 55 minutes later.

put a goalie for 60 minutes with no other skaters

a great goalie will still win the game right?

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

put a goalie for 60 minutes with no other skaters

a great goalie will still win the game right?

If he can shoot like Marty maybe

 

[Jedi]

Pull the goalie 5 minutes into the game and let me know what the outcome is 55 minutes later.

The person you were quoting literally had the word "complete" in there. I find your response odd.

A pitcher is one of 9 (10 if you count the DH) players. A goalie is one of 6.

Obviously, they are more important than the average non-pitcher/goalie, but the great majority of the game is decided by their teammates.

A pitcher is especially important, while pitching they have something like 30-40% impact on the game (I read a Sabermetric article on it a ways back, but can't recall the numbers exactly). However they typically pitch only ~2/3rds of the game.

A goalie probably has 20-25% control, I'd guess. More than 1/6th for certain - but definitely under 25%.

Also, the reason the huge majority of greatest players ever have been skaters is because the variance from one goalie to another is not as big as between skaters. The gap between best goalie and 15th best goalie is little compared to the huge gulf between best skater and 75th best skater.

I know I'm kind of rambling here, so sorry for that I just find these discussions of importance of players interesting.

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

The person you were quoting literally had the word "complete" in there. I find your response odd.

A pitcher is one of 9 (10 if you count the DH) players. A goalie is one of 6.

Obviously, they are more important than the average non-pitcher/goalie, but the great majority of the game is decided by their teammates.

A pitcher is especially important, while pitching they have something like 30-40% impact on the game (I read a Sabremetric article on it a ways back, but can't recall the numbers exactly). However they typically pitch only ~2/3rds of the game.

A goalie probably has 20-25% control, I'd guess. More than 1/6th for certain - but definitely under 25%.

Also, the reason the huge majority of greatest players ever have been skaters is because the variance from one goalie to another is not as big as between skaters. The gap between best goalie and 15th best goalie is little compared to the huge gulf between best skater and 75th best skater.

I know I'm kind of rambling here, so sorry for that I just find these discussions of importance of players interesting.

It's not rambling at all and in fact it's one of the best posts I've read here. Sometimes people omit or forget that goalie is a specialized position and that you literally can't win without one. With 18-20 skaters, you can play a game with 1 or even 10 guys. Heck, for arguments sake you could play a game with 3 skaters, it won't be pretty, but one thing for sure is you can't play without a goalie. Goalies have far more control then they are given credit for, because not stopping a single shot out of 15+ shots could mean the difference between winning and losing. It's arguable that every single shot a goalie faces can change the outcome of the game. While a goalie can't score, he is in complete control of whether he gets scored on and that's 50% or more of the game if you ask me. The other 50% is the other guy at the end of the rink trying to prevent shots from going into his net.

I'm not saying skaters have no importance, but to me it's almost as if goalies control anywhere from 50-90% of the game.

*you can play a game with 1 or even 10 guys out (from a 20 skater roster).

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

This is exactly what I mean, just looking at that you would say he's been a joke. Yet he was going neck to neck with Quick for the Cup and the Conn Smythe in 2012. I don't put too much weight into Save%.

Marty wasn't neck and neck with Quick at all. Marty sucked in round 1, then the team Devils'd the Flyers in round 2, he became "Marty against Lundqvist" Marty for 3 games in round 3, and then Quick completely stoned the Devils for much of round 4. Quick set the record for save percentage by a goalie in those playoffs.

Yes, Marty was part of a team that played very well for chunks of that playoffs, and he had moments just like he still does when he plays this season. A goalie can have a bad save percentage and still win games. Hockey is a team sport. The Devils were a great team in 2012 and they're working their way back there this year.

 

[Bleedred]

I thought Marty was very good in the 2012 ECF. Our best player possibly. It was his best playoff series since the 03 ECF against Ottawa IMO. I would bet that's the best save percentage he had in a playoff series since then.

It was obviously higher in 06 against the Rangers, but we rolled right through them that series. Marty was barely under pressure in that series, he didn't even have to be that good cause we were scoring goals left and right, and that flat out killed them in 4 games.

I don't think anyone can argue that his performance in the Rangers series in 2012 wasn't better than any of the playoff series that he's had since the 03 cup. He wasn't very good in the playoffs from 04-10. Was good in 09, but that's about it.

Marty wasn't as good in the 2012 playoffs as he was in 95 or 03. Those are hard to beat. Definitely MUCH. better than the 2001 playoffs, and even the save percentage will verify that. I would say on par with the 2000 playoffs though. For those that don't remember, Marty was BAD in games 2-4 of the 2000 ECF against Philadelphia. I would say worse than any of those games against Florida two years ago. He also made a couple puckhandling gaffes during that series too.

 

[Bleedred]

Marty in the 04 playoffs wasn't good from what I remember. Marty in the 06 playoffs was not good against Carolina. In 2007 he looked worse in the first 3 or 4 games of the TBL series than he did for much of the 2012 Panthers series. He wasn't good in the Ottawa series that year either. He wasn't good at all against the Rangers in 2008. This may have been one of his worst series since the 01 SCF. Maybe one of the worst of his career. He wasn't very good in the 2010 playoffs either.

Most of this was due to probably playing a lot more games than he should have, and having to carry a team all season that by all means was not very good. We had to play Marty 70+ games those years cause Clemmensen and Weekes were garbage (Except for the year he was injured. Clemmensen sucked from 05-07 and Weekes was hideous in 07-08. Both providing well under 900 save percentage goaltending). Yann Danis wasn't good either, although he looked fine when only starting 5 games that season.

I want Cory to start more than anybody, but Marty was terrific in the 2012 playoffs. His save percentage at even strength I believe was better than most of the other goalies in the tournament, Quick being the exception. Marty would have won the Conn Smythe (maybe Kovalchuk too) if we won the cup. There's no way in hell that Marty was anywhere near as good in the 04-10 playoffs as he was that year. If you think he wasn't good in 2012, you obviously don't remember what he looked like in the playoffs between 04 and 10. The 06 Rangers, and 09 Hurricanes series being the only ones he was really good in during that time span.

 

[MadDevil]

The 2012 playoffs were the last time Marty was able to consistently play at a high level. Which just makes losing in the Final that much more painful. That really should have been their year. With the way everything came together in the playoffs, Parise, Kovalchuk, Elias, and Clarkson all having the years they had, the way Marty played. But no, those ****ing *******s from California had to ruin everything.

 

[sbresistor]

given the mediocrity of the team - if we somehow squeak in to the playoffs...wouldn't the higher chance of success (all in) mentality be to start Brodeur - since he seems to have higher 'upside' and can get on a hot streak?

keep in mind, if you are not the superior team, you need to gamble in order to overachieve

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I don't think Brodeur has a higher upside than Schneider

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

Patrick Roy career GAA 2.50 sv pct .910 and he's in the convo for best ever...

You understand that a lot of goalies were putting up sub .900 save percentages for the majority of Roy's career?

You can't compare stats like save percentage and GAA without adjusting for the goal scoring climate. Scoring was at like 7+ GPG in the late 80s and early 90s - of course save percentages are going to be lower.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

given the mediocrity of the team - if we somehow squeak in to the playoffs...wouldn't the higher chance of success (all in) mentality be to start Brodeur - since he seems to have higher 'upside' and can get on a hot streak?

keep in mind, if you are not the superior team, you need to gamble in order to overachieve

What are you talking about? In what sense does Brodeur have a higher upside?

Some of the arguments coming from the Marty fanboys are getting crazy.

In the playoffs we need a goalie who isn't going to give in softies from the top of the faceoff dot.

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

given the mediocrity of the team - if we somehow squeak in to the playoffs...wouldn't the higher chance of success (all in) mentality be to start Brodeur - since he seems to have higher 'upside' and can get on a hot streak?

keep in mind, if you are not the superior team, you need to gamble in order to overachieve

You are correct. Brodeura beat games this year have been better than Cory's, but also his worst games have been worse as well. The major difference between the two is that Cory has been more consistent while Marty has been very up and down from very very good to a few stinkers here and there.

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

What are you talking about? In what sense does Brodeur have a higher upside?

Some of the arguments coming from the Marty fanboys are getting crazy.

In the playoffs we need a goalie who isn't going to give in softies from the top of the faceoff dot.

Yep, better we lose 2-1 every game with a .925 save percentage! In the playoffs you have to take the gamble on Marty, unless Cory is on a 7+ game winning streak ending the season.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

in the playoffs we should play the best goalie on the roster

that is #35.

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

in the playoffs we should play the best goalie on the roster

that is #35.

Hello early exit!

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Hello early exit!

who is the better overall goalie RIGHT NOW....Brodeur or Schneider?

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

who is the better overall goalie RIGHT NOW....Brodeur or Schneider?

Cory has been consistent but I haven't seen him elevate his game once this season. In the playoffs you take the game on Marty who has had better games than Cory's best & who has higher upside. Marty is known for his intense competitive nature and his ability to go on extended streaks. If it's playoffs I ride and die with Marty.