Martin Brodeur's playoff overtime record

[Big Phil]

Martin Brodeur. Excellent all-time goalie. One of the greats, I would have him #5 ahead of Glenn Hall. Clutch goalie, multiple Cup winner, most important player outside of Scott Stevens for those three Cups, best player in franchise history by a long shot and not known as a goalie that "blew" it very often considering he played in a lot of playoff hockey. You want this guy in your net for Game 7 because two things will happen. You may lose but he won't be the guy you are likely to point at about it or he'll come up big with a clutch win to help you win. He will not blow it for you, almost certainly not.

So..........................why on earth did he have such a bad record in playoff overtime? I can't comprehend this at all. I guess it doesn't matter so much, it is nearly a coin flip when you get into overtime and we can still call him an all-time great playoff performer but for whatever reason he didn't win as many playoff overtime games as you would think.

By my count, and I did it manually because I couldn't find another tool to use, he was 16-24 in playoff overtime. That surprises me a bit considering he made it to 5 Cup final appearances. But there were a lot of moments where Brodeur is on the wrong end of an overtime game, even in series that he won, for whatever reason the Devils didn't step up in overtime.

I guess a lot of it has to do with the fact that he didn't have a team that had that classic game breaker. The Devils were not the type of team that jumped out right away and wanted to score in overtime. They'd sit back a bit more, so I think that factors in a lot.

Lastly, we know the guy was clutch, so this record 16-24 is not necessarily something that aligns with his 113-91 playoff record, but the discrepancy alone makes you at least ask why it didn't favour his team a bit more.

Also, Brodeur rarely looked bad in games. He was also the type of goalie who seemed unshaken by overtime goals, and there are so many opportunities where he lost an overtime game but the Devils still won it in 6 games. So maybe it is a moot point, but it does make an interesting conversation as to why the overtime numbers aren't better.

 

[Doctor No]

Yep, 16 and 24. Here's a data dump from my files.

 

[MadLuke]

If it would be a coin flop the chance of having at least 24 lost in 40 games would be 13% (so very possible) if there is 10 goaltender for who it would be surprising that is bound to happen and maybe there is nothing there.

The game breaking talent being less than other great is something to look at (among goaltender with a large sample size of playoff OT there would be common after all to be on great team that have them), what was Brodeur save % in that game situation ? (the pick above do show lost occurin in second, third, 4 OT period (against Hasek)

 

[GMR]

Isn't Giguere like 11-1 in OT in the playoffs? Just one of those things.

I honestly don't think there's much to this stat. Just luck. Kind of like Messier playing in over 200 playoff games and never scoring an OT winner, despite being a clutch player. Meanwhile, Bob Nystrom has four playoff OT goals in his career. How can that be explained?

 

[vikash1987]

Goaltenders' career playoff OT records are very "noisy" stats by themselves. For example, in that first one---the 4OT classic in Buffalo against Hasek---Brodeur made something like 20 saves in the OTs, including a couple dandies, and on the goal, he was down and screened. On the Steve Thomas goal in the 2003 SCF, he had just made a brilliant save on Ozolinsh I think it was, and he really had no chance on the shot that came right after. So the record doesn't tell us much.

 

[Doctor No]

Did just notice that I've got Brodeur and Giguere's shots by period swapped for the 6/2/2003 game - Brodeur should be 7/7, 8/8, 9/9, then 1/2.

 

[Brodeur]

Another weird thing that I couldn't really explain, but in the OTs lasting less than five minutes Brodeur went 3-9. I suppose you could make a joke about Brodeur needing a few minutes to settle down from his intermission Sprite.

 

[CaptBrannigan]

Isn't Giguere like 11-1 in OT in the playoffs? Just one of those things.

I honestly don't think there's much to this stat. Just luck. Kind of like Messier playing in over 200 playoff games and never scoring an OT winner, despite being a clutch player. Meanwhile, Bob Nystrom has four playoff OT goals in his career. How can that be explained?

That can be explained by “clutch” really not existing. It may be the single biggest thing in hockey that people see when they want and don’t see when they don’t want, and cases made to support are built after.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Isn't Giguere like 11-1 in OT in the playoffs? Just one of those things.

I honestly don't think there's much to this stat. Just luck. Kind of like Messier playing in over 200 playoff games and never scoring an OT winner, despite being a clutch player. Meanwhile, Bob Nystrom has four playoff OT goals in his career. How can that be explained?

Messier did have 5 assists on overtime goals. Had he gone completely scoreless, I think we could say that it should appropriately raise eyebrows.

In the case of Martin Brodeur, I think some blame has to fall on the Devils’ offense. He was something like 54-29 in regular season overtime games through March 2009, so he was on teams that had killer instincts in that context but seemed to lose it in the playoffs.

Regular Season Overtime Record vs. Playoff Overtime Record Trend (as of March 2009):

54-29 (.651); 11-19 (.367): Brodeur
35-20 (.636); 15-14 (.517): Hasek
44-32 (.579); 40-18 (.690): Roy
36-28 (.563); 4-7 (.364): Osgood
43-34 (.558); 13-15 (.464): Joseph
39-35 (.527); 22-20 (.524): Belfour

Still, he did have a noticeably lower overtime save percentage than some of his contemporaries. His .914 wasn’t exactly Ed Belfour’s .945, and Belfour still barely broke a .500 record.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Gordie Howe Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Howe played until he was 51. Never scored an OT winner.

Bum!

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Gordie Howe Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Howe played until he was 51. Never scored an OT winner.

Bum!

not even in regular season play?

 

[Doctor No]

not even in regular season play?

I don't believe Howe ever played in a regular season overtime game.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i wonder which is the more famous overtime game that brodeur was in, arnott's 2OT cup winner or matteau's 2OT in marty's rookie year?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Matteau for me...as a fan of none of those things (nor against them)...

 

[BM67]

Brodeur's OT record has more to do with goal support than goaltending. His team scored at a goal about every 37 minutes rate. Roy saw goal support at about a goal every 16.5 minutes.

Goal support in OT: Brodeur 1.62/60; Belfour 1.81/60; Hasek 1.90/60; Joseph 2.09/60; Roy 3.62/60

Roy equals Marty's win total of 16 with 54:39 playing time and 16 saves made in OT (6 zero save wins, 7 one save wins, and 3 three save wins). To get his 16 wins Brodeur played 250:40 and made 102 saves in OT (2 zero save wins, 1 one save win, 2 two save wins, 2 three save wins).

Brodeur is 1-3 in OT games where he had a shutout going to OT, and that's with him adding 5 more shutout periods in OT.

Record in playoff OT Losses during Regulation

Player	L	Min	GA	GAA	SA	SV%	SA/60
Belfour	20	1180:43:00	33	1.68	570	0.942	28.97
Brodeur	24	1437:42:00	38	1.59	637	0.940	26.58
Hasek	14	838:14:00	31	2.22	358	0.913	25.63
Joseph	14	835:02:00	25	1.80	393	0.936	28.24
Roy	18	1079:42:00	34	1.89	450	0.924	25.01
Roy M	6	360:00:00	11	1.83	139	0.921	23.17
Roy C	12	719:42:00	23	1.92	311	0.926	25.93

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Record in playoff OT Losses during OT

Player	L	Min	Avg OT	GAA	SA	SV%	SA/60
Belfour	20	358:24:00	17:55	3.35	203	0.901	33.98
Brodeur	24	342:36:00	14:16	4.20	178	0.865	31.17
Hasek	14	181:54:00	13:00	4.62	94	0.851	31.01
Joseph	14	181:19:00	12:57	4.63	99	0.859	32.76
Roy	18	175:23:00	9:45	6.16	105	0.829	35.92
Roy M	6	30:16:00	5:03	11.89	19	0.684	37.67
Roy C	12	145:07:00	12:06	4.96	86	0.860	35.56

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Marty had 1.28/60 goal support in his 24 OT losses.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Brodeur's OT record has more to do with goal support than goaltending. His team scored at a goal about every 37 minutes rate. Roy saw goal support at about a goal every 16.5 minutes.

If you have the number in front of you, what’s the gap in goal support from Montreal vs. Colorado? Obviously, playing in a high-scoring era (I believe 29 of his OT games were from 1986-1993) should result in a quicker finish, which would subsequently drag down the average length of the OT period. The 9-second OT game in 1986 more or less halves one of his lengthier OT games from later in his career in an averaging evaluation. Even his most famous OT game in Montreal was a ~10 minute flurry by the Rangers that brings down his average.

Ultimately, I think the biggest difference is that Roy was something like .949 in overtime and Brodeur was .914 without taking the era advantages into account.

 

[VanIslander]

Checking is tiring. That's one thing I recall from youth hockey.

Hockey is like boxing: it is harder to throw your body parts than it is to take a hit.

For a team like the Devils that trapped and checked teams into the boards, that strategy becomes more difficult the longer the game goes.

 

[vikash1987]

In the case of Martin Brodeur, I think some blame has to fall on the Devils’ offense. He was something like 54-29 in regular season overtime games through March 2009, so he was on teams that had killer instincts in that context but seemed to lose it in the playoffs.

Regular Season Overtime Record vs. Playoff Overtime Record Trend (as of March 2009):

54-29 (.651); 11-19 (.367): Brodeur
35-20 (.636); 15-14 (.517): Hasek
44-32 (.579); 40-18 (.690): Roy
36-28 (.563); 4-7 (.364): Osgood
43-34 (.558); 13-15 (.464): Joseph
39-35 (.527); 22-20 (.524): Belfour

Still, he did have a noticeably lower overtime save percentage than some of his contemporaries. His .914 wasn’t exactly Ed Belfour’s .945, and Belfour still barely broke a .500 record.

Shot quality/context matters here. Ideally, we would be looking at some sort of adjusted stat which accounts for that.

For example, some of these goaltenders could’ve played brilliantly in the OT and stood on their heads with a lot of saves, only to give up a real weak one at the end which was very stoppable and thus very surprising and demoralizing. This was the case with Belfour at least a couple times in Chicago, if I recall correctly.

Osgood blowing the Langebrunner shot from center ice in the ‘98 WCF is another category: i.e. a goal against in OT for which you can peg the blame squarely on the goaltender, and for which there are NO redeeming features, given the fact that he didn’t do anything in the OT before that.

Ultimately, a win is a win and a loss is a loss, but if we’re to judge/compare goaltenders and their records based on such small samples of do-or-die situations, I think it’s important to consider what the circumstances were for each W/L, and how they actually performed.

 

[BM67]

If you have the number in front of you, what’s the gap in goal support from Montreal vs. Colorado? Obviously, playing in a high-scoring era (I believe 29 of his OT games were from 1986-1993) should result in a quicker finish, which would subsequently drag down the average length of the OT period. The 9-second OT game in 1986 more or less halves one of his lengthier OT games from later in his career in an averaging evaluation. Even his most famous OT game in Montreal was a ~10 minute flurry by the Rangers that brings down his average.

Ultimately, I think the biggest difference is that Roy was something like .949 in overtime and Brodeur was .914 without taking the era advantages into account.

23 GF in 290:31 (10:01 OT/GP) of OT in Montreal, or 4.75/60 (23W, 6L), and 17 GF in 371:51 (12:49 OT/GP) of OT in Colorado, or 2.74/60 (17W, 12L). Brodeur's average OT was 14:50, 15:40 in W, 14:16 in L.

W-L Records in OT with 5 or fewer saves and by length of OT

Player	0 SV	1 SV	2 SV	3 SV	4 SV	5 SV
Belfour	4W 1L	0W 2L	4W 3L	4W 1L	1W 1L	2W 2L
Brodeur	2W 2L	1W 2L	2W 3L	2W 1L	1W 4L	1W 2L
Hasek	1W 3L	1W 0L	1W 0L	2W 2L	1W 3L	1W 0L
Joseph	1W 0L	1W 1L	0W 3L	2W 1L	0W 4L	1W 0L
Roy	6W 3L	7W 3L	0W 1L	3W 3L	4W 1L	3W 1L
Player	5 min <	5 - 10 min	10 - 20 min	20-40m	40-60m	60m+
Belfour	7W 4L	6W 4L	3W 4L	2W 6L	4W 2L	0W 0L
Brodeur	3W 9L	5W 6L	3W 4L	4W 2L	1W 2L	0W 1L
Hasek	3W 3L	3W 3L	4W 6L	3W 1L	1W 1L	1W 0L
Joseph	2W 1L	2W 7L	5W 4L	3W 1L	1W 1L	0W 0L
Roy	12W 9L	8W 2L	14W 4L	4W 3L	2W 0L	0W 0L

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[quoipourquoi]

For example, some of these goaltenders could’ve played brilliantly in the OT and stood on their heads with a lot of saves, only to give up a real weak one at the end which was very stoppable and thus very surprising and demoralizing. This was the case with Belfour at least a couple times in Chicago, if I recall correctly.

Osgood blowing the Langebrunner shot from center ice in the ‘98 WCF is another category: i.e. a goal against in OT for which you can peg the blame squarely on the goaltender, and for which there are NO redeeming features, given the fact that he didn’t do anything in the OT before that.

Can we really point to the Osgood GA as an example of a demoralizing loss? Osgood shutout the next game to help Detroit advance over Dallas before sweeping the Capitals. He stopped a combined 118/125 (.944) in the playoffs subsequent to the bad goal. It didn’t seem to have a detrimental effect beyond the loss itself.

I do think it’s important to look beyond the win/loss record itself in these things, but I don’t know that relative to the other major stars of the DPE that Brodeur stands out positively in OT.

Roy .949 (middle of OT career is 1993)
Belfour .945 (~1999)
Hasek .938 (~2001)
Joseph .927 (~1999)
Brodeur .914 (~2003)

I don't want to put a lot of importance on this, considering the sample sizes. But there appears to be a clear best and worst here, and that's before you take into consideration the scoring environments they all played in.

 

[wetcoast]

Isn't Giguere like 11-1 in OT in the playoffs? Just one of those things.

I honestly don't think there's much to this stat. Just luck. Kind of like Messier playing in over 200 playoff games and never scoring an OT winner, despite being a clutch player. Meanwhile, Bob Nystrom has four playoff OT goals in his career. How can that be explained?

Well Bob Nystrom and the depth of the NYI teams are often over looked as they had their big 4 (Potvin, Trottier, Bossy and Smith).

OT goals are sometimes just luck though in a sense that you have right IMO.

 

[vikash1987]

Can we really point to the Osgood GA as an example of a demoralizing loss? Osgood shutout the next game to help Detroit advance over Dallas before sweeping the Capitals. He stopped a combined 118/125 (.944) in the playoffs subsequent to the bad goal. It didn’t seem to have a detrimental effect beyond the loss itself.

I do think it’s important to look beyond the win/loss record itself in these things, but I don’t know that relative to the other major stars of the DPE that Brodeur stands out positively in OT.

When I mentioned “demoralizing,” I was referring to Belfour (not Osgood) and those occasions in which he would play exceptionally well in playoff OTs, only to give up a very ordinary/saveable shot in the end. In fairness, though, I don’t remember how often this actually happened. I thought it happened at least a couple times when he was in Chicago. Osgood’s response after that doozy in Dallas was great, but the point is that the OT loss has to be looked at carefully, with consideration to what he actually did in the OT and whether the shot that beat him was a good one.

Some of Brodeur’s playoff OT GA weren’t great, in that you could argue that he could’ve/should’ve saved those (even if he played well in the OT). But I think these were a small minority of the 24 that are in question.

 

[Big Phil]

Isn't Giguere like 11-1 in OT in the playoffs? Just one of those things.

I honestly don't think there's much to this stat. Just luck. Kind of like Messier playing in over 200 playoff games and never scoring an OT winner, despite being a clutch player. Meanwhile, Bob Nystrom has four playoff OT goals in his career. How can that be explained?

Do you want your mind blown? Mario, Howe, Messier and Ovechkin have zero playoff overtime goals between them. Yet the first three are definitely playoff legends and Ovechkin has had his moments as well. I think that is a bit less of a sample size than with Brodeur in net because he was more in control of whether or not he won or lost in overtime but the point is taken. A playoff overtime goal does have a lot of weight to it though, to be fair. Especially if you do multiple ones over again. But the record is Joe Sakic with 8, so basically there is just 8 goals between the best and worst of all-time in playoff overtime goals.

 

[Stephen]

I'd attribute that to the fact that New Jersey likely didn't have a great supply of goal scorers to supply the OT heroics.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

That can be explained by “clutch” really not existing. It may be the single biggest thing in hockey that people see when they want and don’t see when they don’t want, and cases made to support are built after.

I always see this take and I vehemently disagree.
We know, just psychologically, that people respond to pressure differently. This is true in all walks of life. There are people who's experience of time slows down in a crisis, and people who panic and the world speeds up and decisions are harder to come by.
The pressure of playoff moments is inherently going to have some guys (people) for whom it narrows and enhances their focus to a superlative level like Michael Jordan, Joe Sakic, those sorts.
And it will have people who are overwhelmed by the moment. People who cannot execute, or lose a bit of access to their executive functioning. Just because stats in a chaotic sport fail to pick up this fact, doesn't mean that it's some narrative myth.