Martin Brodeur

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Feb 27, 2002
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"The Vezina Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's goaltender who is "adjudged to be the best at this position".[1] At the end of each season, the 30 General Managers of the teams in the National Hockey League vote to determine the goaltender who was the most valuable to his team during the regular season."

The Vezina Trophy is awarded to the most valuable goalie during the regular season that year.

None of those four have ever done anything during the playoffs in previous years.

Not seeing how it's curious that they would get consideration.

One more time....

I thought the original post mentioning Kipprusoff, Bryz, Mille and Nabakov was suggesting that they should be superior to Brodeur in the upcoming playoff season. I misinterpreted it, get it? I stated as much in post #44.

I have now clarified it two times for those in the back of the room. So please dispense with the silly "gotcha" posts. And you need not cite to me the qualifications for the Vezina. :shakehead
 
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Starchild74

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Aug 27, 2009
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Ok first of all Brodeur and Hasek played in the same era. No re-calculations or era adjusting are needed. Roy played 8 seasons before Brodeur started his career. Yes he started in the mid 80's and their was more scoring however he did play in the Adams division where scoring was tighter as Montreal, Boston, and to a degree Buffalo played very decent defensively and Hartford had trouble scoring and by 1988 Quebec had a horrible team.

I am tired of people and experts saying you have to re-calculate everything for the era's they played in. first off all who is to say when an era begins and when one ends? Who determines this? I mean I have seen these re-calculations before and I do not go by them. It does not take a genious to figure out that even with re-calculations you can not compare Harry Lumley of Toronto getting 13 shutouts and a GAA of 1.86 in 1953-54 with Clint Benedict getting 13 shutouts and a GAA of 1.41 in 1926-1927. We can all agree that Clint Benedict his considered one of the best in his era and is more known that Harry Lumley. Who almost lost as many games as he won in his career. However if you try to re-calculate their numbers one thing the re-calculation won't do. That is tell you that in 1926-27 There were no curved sticks. Their was no passing in the offensive zone. People seem to put too much value on re-calculating. I do not need a calculator to know that Harry Lumley's feet is more impressive with all do respect to Benedict.

Just like if you compare:
1986-87 Wayne Gretzky age 26 79GP 62G 121A 183PTS
1987-88 Mario Lemieux age 22 77GP 70G 98A 168PTS
1970-71 Phil Esposito age 28 78GP 76G 76A 152PTS

You do need to calculate anything to figure out that yes Esposito was older and only was able to get 152pts but that season is better then both Gretzky and Lemieux. Gretzky is actually third when you look at these seasons. All I am saying is that re-calculating for different era's is a nice way of trying to see what a person might have done in another era but you can not truly get the intangibles that is needed.

Let's take Brodeur and Roy's first year regular season stats

In Roy's first complete year he played in 47 games had 23 wins 3.35 GAA and .875 sv pct. and faced 1185 shots

Brodeur's first complete year he played 47 games had 27 wins 2.40 GAA and .915 sv pct. and faced 1238 shots.

Now Bordeur won 4 more games which is not much of an advantage. Brodeur's GAA is lower but that has to do a little about how the game was changing and faced 53 more shots then Roy. I would say that Brodeur only has a slight edge so far. But all I hear on here is save pct. is what truly makes a goalie great. His save percentage is a full .40 better then Roy's first year. Brodeur did face Gretzky and Lemieux and even had to face Messier and the Rangers alot. So i guess we have to re-calculate the save pct. too I mean Roy must have face harder shooters or better players then Brodeur. Or is it that in 93-94 because of a different era saves were easier to come by. Oh wait it was because nobody could score in 1993-94 I mean how many players got 100 pts that year. Wow 8 that is all what an easy time it is to be a rookie goalie in the NHL. I am sure when Roy entered their were alot more. Wow only 13 100pt players a difference of 5. Well Roy played in a time when goalies stats weren't the greatest where does he rank in the league for sv. pct. that year. Wow 30th. I bet because of the lack of scoring in 93-94 Brodeur did not do that well. Wow 6th and only .02 less then Roy and 7 years younger.

So who had a better year. In the Regular season without a doubt it was Brodeur but still pretty close. Of course if you take the playoffs into account it is Roy he won a cup his first year. Brodeur did not. But I did not have to do any calculating or get a rocket scientist to try and figure a formula for me to compare the years.
 

Bear of Bad News

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Sep 27, 2005
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I am tired of people and experts saying you have to re-calculate everything for the era's they played in.

People keep saying this to you because it's something which needs to be done.

The currency of the National Hockey League is wins.

A certain number of goals can be exchanged for a win (this, of course, varies from game to game).

However, in the 1980s, you needed to exchange a lot of goals on average to "buy" a win. A decade later, goals were more valuable, and you could buy wins for less.

Not adjusting for this ignores this key observation. No one is going to make you adjust, but it's still important to do.
 

TANK200

Registered User
Nov 13, 2007
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People keep saying this to you because it's something which needs to be done.

The currency of the National Hockey League is wins.

A certain number of goals can be exchanged for a win (this, of course, varies from game to game).

However, in the 1980s, you needed to exchange a lot of goals on average to "buy" a win. A decade later, goals were more valuable, and you could buy wins for less.

Not adjusting for this ignores this key observation. No one is going to make you adjust, but it's still important to do.

Son, your post offers no good explanation to justify the bolded statement. I would argue that comparisons among individuals in the same era are far more valuable than comparisons based on fictitious, or "adjusted" as you call them, numbers.
 

Bear of Bad News

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Sep 27, 2005
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It's fine that you feel that way, although if individuals are truly in the same era, then their adjusted statistics will be adjusted by the same amount, and the comparisons will be identical.

You should realize, however, that you lost all of your credibility with me as soon as you called me "son".
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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But it wasn't just save percentage; Giguere was better in every category except for Wins, though he had a higher winning percentage. All of this on a far more penalized team (410 vs. 271).

What is it that made Brodeur the best candidate in your eyes? To me, no goalie stood out like a Roy or a Hasek in 2008, but it seemed as if people adapt their argument as to what makes the best goalie to fit Brodeur because he's Brodeur. In 2003 and 2004, save percentage wasn't a dealbreaker, but all of a sudden it was the statistic of choice in Nabokov's detractors (Nabokov bettered Brodeur in every category except SPCT). And when it came to Giguere, the only thing holding back a single category of his numbers was his own dehydration issues which limit his GP (and yet he still had the same number of shutouts).

To me, I can't think of a scenario by which someone can justify that Vezina without docking style points for butterfly goalies.

TDMM basically covered this, and it's pretty important. Brodeur playing ~70 games versus Giguere's ~50 is a huge difference if they're playing at nearly identical levels.

And like I said, watching the respective goaltenders perform their tasks is also a factor, and a more important one than simply looking at stats. The stats would imply that Tim Thomas has been the best goalie in the NHL over the last two and a half seasons. I have a hard time believing this based on what my eyes tell me. The "eyeball test" is also why I have no problem ranking Hasek over Roy and Brodeur. I watched all three, and one stood out above the other two game after game.
 

Morozov

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Sep 18, 2007
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I don’t know if that is necessarily true. Brodeur defied the conventional wisdom of his time by turning his back on the butterfly, and came up with a style that was completely unique to him. And after all his success, one would wonder why hockey clinics do not teach Brodeur’s ways to goalies of the future. The main reason that no other goalie has emulated Brodeur’s style of goaltending is simply because they can’t. The butterfly has taken off in popularity because it is a technical system, and even goalies that do not possess an abundance of natural talent can excel as long as they are technically sound (i.e. Giguere). However, the style implemented by Brodeur is one that relies much more on natural athleticism and talent.

Unique, unteachable, natural athleticism, sounds more like Hasek's style than Brodeur's to me. That whole paragraph is more applicable to Hasek than Brodeur. Not trying to dismiss Brodeur's style here but to me these things you talk about are what Hasek is all about. Would much rather try to teach goalies how to play like Brodeur than how to play like Hasek. Trying to teach a young goalie to play like Hasek would create a world of problems I would imagine lol.
 
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therealkoho

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Jul 10, 2009
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Brodeur's entire career has been played in a defensive system, though not always the infamous "neutral zone trap". Jacques Lemaire implemented the "trap" after he was brought into New Jersey for the first time, and no one can argue against the fact that much of Brodeur's career has been under the umbrella of that stifling style of neutral zone defense.

The trap is a system built around limiting breakouts and neutral zone passes and in turn, the high-quality scoring chances created from them. Now, I have no complaints with New Jersey playing that system for so long. The bottom line is that it worked, and that is the only thing that matters in terms of judging a "system", IMO. That said, a system must be taken into account when grading a goaltender. Brodeur, quite simply, was heavily protected by a tight defensive system that limited high-quality scoring chances and just to make matters even more interesting, involved two Hall of Fame defensemen for over a decade.

Patrick Roy played 9 seasons in the high-scoring era, as compared to Brodeur's one. His Montreal teams were generally solid defensively and let's not forget that Pat Burns played a huge role in Roy's 3 Vezina Trophies. It shows you the influence of a defensively-minded head coach on a goaltender. That said, Roy's career stats are hurt a lot by his first 8 seasons in the league, all of which came before Brodeur became an every-day NHL player, all of which that came in the high-scoring era. The truth is that Roy never enjoyed the defense cores and systems that Brodeur did. Actually, Roy's Colorado teams until the arrival of Rob Blake and Ray Bourque, were as close to "run-and-gun" teams as we saw in the dead puck era. They were all offense, no defense, and a lot of Patrick Roy. I mean, Sandis Ozolinsh was in his prime and was one of their top defensemen! That's a lot of scoring chances for and even more scoring chances against.

Okay, enough about comparing systems and scoring chances. The reason why Roy is almost universally (outside of New Jersey) considered a greater goaltender is because he makes Brodeur, a fantastic playoff performer in his own right, look like Roman Turek come playoff-time. It's a major exaggeration, yes, I know, but the point remains that Roy is the greatest playoff goaltender in history and, in my eyes, possibly the greatest "clutch" performer, at any position, ever. I remember a recent quote from Guy Carbonneau about what Roy said during the intermission before OT in Game 2 of the 93 Finals. It went something like "Patrick stood up in the room before the OT started and told us not to worry because 'they will not score'."

Roy simply had an aura about him that teams simply could not solve in the playoffs. He got into their heads. I'll never forget what he said about the Sandstrom wink. From the SI Archives.

Martin Brodeur is not the greatest goaltender ever because of many reasons. One of them happens to be that Patrick Roy, who I consider second behind Hasek and right along Jacques Plante, whipped him on the biggest stage on earth. When Brodeur's Devils had the Avalanche on the rocks, Roy, as he had so many times before, simply refused to give up a goal because he simply believed he was too great a goaltender to give one up. And in so many instances, he was right.

41-17 career playoff OT record. 7-0 career Stanley Cup Finals OT record. Won a Conn Smythe Trophy in each of the three decades he played in. How exactly is Brodeur better than Roy? He, like so many other French-Canadian goalies, grew up idolizing #33, and many thought that the 2001 Cup Finals would be the moment Brodeur took Roy's playoff mantle. It actually looked possible after Game 5, but in Games 6 and 7, Roy proved why he was Patrick Roy, and nobody else ever will be.

Do you mean just like the neutral zone trap the Habs played in Roys days there, or perhaps the 1-2-2 forecheck that the Avalanche employed in his time there?

I've often wondered why that all-star team in Colorado only won 2 cups when they should've won 4 and possibly 5, fact is they didn't!
 

Derick*

Guest
People keep saying this to you because it's something which needs to be done.

The currency of the National Hockey League is wins.

A certain number of goals can be exchanged for a win (this, of course, varies from game to game).

However, in the 1980s, you needed to exchange a lot of goals on average to "buy" a win. A decade later, goals were more valuable, and you could buy wins for less.

Not adjusting for this ignores this key observation. No one is going to make you adjust, but it's still important to do.

That's a fantastic way of putting it and the people who don't agree with you after reading it are wrong.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Ok first of all Brodeur and Hasek played in the same era. No re-calculations or era adjusting are needed. Roy played 8 seasons before Brodeur started his career. Yes he started in the mid 80's and their was more scoring however he did play in the Adams division where scoring was tighter as Montreal, Boston, and to a degree Buffalo played very decent defensively and Hartford had trouble scoring and by 1988 Quebec had a horrible team.

I am tired of people and experts saying you have to re-calculate everything for the era's they played in. first off all who is to say when an era begins and when one ends? Who determines this? I mean I have seen these re-calculations before and I do not go by them. It does not take a genious to figure out that even with re-calculations you can not compare Harry Lumley of Toronto getting 13 shutouts and a GAA of 1.86 in 1953-54 with Clint Benedict getting 13 shutouts and a GAA of 1.41 in 1926-1927. We can all agree that Clint Benedict his considered one of the best in his era and is more known that Harry Lumley. Who almost lost as many games as he won in his career. However if you try to re-calculate their numbers one thing the re-calculation won't do. That is tell you that in 1926-27 There were no curved sticks. Their was no passing in the offensive zone. People seem to put too much value on re-calculating. I do not need a calculator to know that Harry Lumley's feet is more impressive with all do respect to Benedict.

Just like if you compare:
1986-87 Wayne Gretzky age 26 79GP 62G 121A 183PTS
1987-88 Mario Lemieux age 22 77GP 70G 98A 168PTS
1970-71 Phil Esposito age 28 78GP 76G 76A 152PTS

You do need to calculate anything to figure out that yes Esposito was older and only was able to get 152pts but that season is better then both Gretzky and Lemieux. Gretzky is actually third when you look at these seasons. All I am saying is that re-calculating for different era's is a nice way of trying to see what a person might have done in another era but you can not truly get the intangibles that is needed.

Let's take Brodeur and Roy's first year regular season stats

In Roy's first complete year he played in 47 games had 23 wins 3.35 GAA and .875 sv pct. and faced 1185 shots

Brodeur's first complete year he played 47 games had 27 wins 2.40 GAA and .915 sv pct. and faced 1238 shots.

Now Bordeur won 4 more games which is not much of an advantage. Brodeur's GAA is lower but that has to do a little about how the game was changing and faced 53 more shots then Roy. I would say that Brodeur only has a slight edge so far. But all I hear on here is save pct. is what truly makes a goalie great. His save percentage is a full .40 better then Roy's first year. Brodeur did face Gretzky and Lemieux and even had to face Messier and the Rangers alot. So i guess we have to re-calculate the save pct. too I mean Roy must have face harder shooters or better players then Brodeur. Or is it that in 93-94 because of a different era saves were easier to come by. Oh wait it was because nobody could score in 1993-94 I mean how many players got 100 pts that year. Wow 8 that is all what an easy time it is to be a rookie goalie in the NHL. I am sure when Roy entered their were alot more. Wow only 13 100pt players a difference of 5. Well Roy played in a time when goalies stats weren't the greatest where does he rank in the league for sv. pct. that year. Wow 30th. I bet because of the lack of scoring in 93-94 Brodeur did not do that well. Wow 6th and only .02 less then Roy and 7 years younger.

So who had a better year. In the Regular season without a doubt it was Brodeur but still pretty close. Of course if you take the playoffs into account it is Roy he won a cup his first year. Brodeur did not. But I did not have to do any calculating or get a rocket scientist to try and figure a formula for me to compare the years.

Read this thread from start to finish and pay close attention.
 

Starchild74

Registered User
Aug 27, 2009
324
0
People keep saying this to you because it's something which needs to be done.

The currency of the National Hockey League is wins.

A certain number of goals can be exchanged for a win (this, of course, varies from game to game).

However, in the 1980s, you needed to exchange a lot of goals on average to "buy" a win. A decade later, goals were more valuable, and you could buy wins for less.

Not adjusting for this ignores this key observation. No one is going to make you adjust, but it's still important to do.

Ok I agree with you that wins are important and that whomever scores the most goals in a game wins and that some seasons goals were easier to come by then others. However no amount of calculations that you want to do will change the fact that if you allow only 1 goal a game and your team does not score then you lose. When George Hainsworth posted 22 shutouts in I believe 1928-29 he only won 22 games. Whenever he allowed a goal his team either tied or lost. Does that make him better or worse. Their are no calculations needed he was by far the most valuable player to his team. When Grant Fuhr was winning games 8-7 for the Oilers he still received a win. Do you take the win away from him because Bob Froese of the New York Rangers lost a game that night 2-1 but only allowed 2 goals. As unfortunate as it might be it does not matter how you win it is that you win.

In the early days of hockey their were no slapshots. So stats were diffenrent then they are now. At one time goalies were not able to fall to the ground to make saves. They had to stand up all the time. What would have happened if hainsworth had to face Brett Hull slapshot. Who knows? To me it does not matter Hainsworth was one of the greatest goalies in his era. No amount of calculations can truly help compare stats from one generation to another. It is even arbitrary to compare goalies save pct. in the same season. For example how many times have you watched a game where one team just seems to shoot from the outside. Or how about when a team just fires the puck down the ice on the goalie adn is counted as a shot. Yet on the other team the goalie faces a 2 on 1 and 3 breakaways. Do you have a calculation that can truly define shots so that they can be compared acurately? No you don't.

It is one thing for someone to say "I have seen Gerry Cheevers play and i believe of all the golaies I have seen he was the best." I can not argue with the person as he is going by what he saw. However when someone starts using just stats and the prime years only or even worse adjusted numbers so that they can compare people it is just so stupid. I do not deal with what if. What if Chicago never traded Phil Esposito? What if Steve Smith never scored on his own net? What if Patrick Roy played in 1928-29 season? What if we calculate the average goals scored in a given year and then calculate what their numbers would be like compared to guys who played the year before? This sounds so stupid. You do not hear people in the NFL say well the average QB was only throwing 2300yds a season in 19** Yet Quarterback X threw for 3000yds. Let's compare that to Payton Manning using a formula that will determine who was the best quarterback. Roger Maris hit 61 HR at a time where starting pitchers pitched almost always the whole game. Let's figure out what his numbers would have been like if he hit in 1999 when teams had closers and set up men to help the startes. No they don't why? because a homerun is a homerun. A yard is still a yard. A goal in hockey back in 1917 is still a goal today. When the hockey news puts out their list of the top players of all time. THey take into consideration what a player did in his career. Did he dominate is era. Was he consistent. Did he perform in the playoffs etc.... I never once heard Don Cherry say to Ron Maclean " Bobby Orr is the greatest player ever because I used era adjusting calculations. I never hear Dick Irvin say "When my father was coaching he used to use era adjusting calculations on the players to determine if they were actually better then the previous season.

So do not tell me that calculating is an important aspect to saying who is the best or not. If you feel that way I feel you are wrong however you can do this if you want. At the end of the day though it is simply this, no amount of calculations will chage what truly is. What truly happened and the numbers that players achieved. Wayne Gretzky scored 215 pts in a season for the record. Howie Morenz never scored 190pts in 1927-28. he scored 51pts. How do you compare the 2 seasons easily. Morenz won the scoring title by 12pts. Gretzky won his by 74pts. Do you really need to calculate that as impressive as Morenz's season was Gretzky's was a little more impressive, maybe alot more.
 

Starchild74

Registered User
Aug 27, 2009
324
0
Oh I forget to add one thing. WHen I said that if a person said he believed that Gerry Cheevers was the best goalie he ever saw play and I said I could not argue with that. I meant I could not argue with the person because he is not going by stats or by what records a person has he is going by what he saw. I would not necessarily agree with him however I never saw Gerry Cheevers play so I could not argue with the person
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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Oh I forget to add one thing. WHen I said that if a person said he believed that Gerry Cheevers was the best goalie he ever saw play and I said I could not argue with that. I meant I could not argue with the person because he is not going by stats or by what records a person has he is going by what he saw. I would not necessarily agree with him however I never saw Gerry Cheevers play so I could not argue with the person

My impression was that you started this thread to convince people that Martin Brodeur was the best goaltender ever.

My impression is also that this post directly contradicts that.

Can you fill me in on what I'm missing?
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
Ok I agree with you that wins are important and that whomever scores the most goals in a game wins and that some seasons goals were easier to come by then others. However no amount of calculations that you want to do will change the fact that if you allow only 1 goal a game and your team does not score then you lose. When George Hainsworth posted 22 shutouts in I believe 1928-29 he only won 22 games. Whenever he allowed a goal his team either tied or lost. Does that make him better or worse. Their are no calculations needed he was by far the most valuable player to his team.

Believe it or not, a defensive defenseman by the name of Sylvio Mantha was the Habs' leading hart vote-getter that year. Not Hainsworth. Hainsworth was not a presence in hart voting once during his career.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,225
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Regina, SK
It is one thing for someone to say "I have seen Gerry Cheevers play and i believe of all the golaies I have seen he was the best." I can not argue with the person as he is going by what he saw. However when someone starts using just stats and the prime years only or even worse adjusted numbers so that they can compare people it is just so stupid. I do not deal with what if. What if Chicago never traded Phil Esposito? What if Steve Smith never scored on his own net? What if Patrick Roy played in 1928-29 season? What if we calculate the average goals scored in a given year and then calculate what their numbers would be like compared to guys who played the year before? This sounds so stupid. You do not hear people in the NFL say well the average QB was only throwing 2300yds a season in 19** Yet Quarterback X threw for 3000yds. Let's compare that to Payton Manning using a formula that will determine who was the best quarterback. Roger Maris hit 61 HR at a time where starting pitchers pitched almost always the whole game. Let's figure out what his numbers would have been like if he hit in 1999 when teams had closers and set up men to help the startes. No they don't why? because a homerun is a homerun. A yard is still a yard. A goal in hockey back in 1917 is still a goal today. When the hockey news puts out their list of the top players of all time. THey take into consideration what a player did in his career. Did he dominate is era. Was he consistent. Did he perform in the playoffs etc.... I never once heard Don Cherry say to Ron Maclean " Bobby Orr is the greatest player ever because I used era adjusting calculations. I never hear Dick Irvin say "When my father was coaching he used to use era adjusting calculations on the players to determine if they were actually better then the previous season.

Era adjustment formulas are just a "formal" way of determining objectively who doiminated their era better than whom. "a goal is a goal and a yard is a yard" is blatantly incorrect.

I don't follow baseball or football at all but I am sure that someone has released adjusted statistics demonstrating a player's hitting or slugging dominance compared to the other hitters and sluggers of their eras, and perhaps the same with rushing yards in football. Either way, baseball needs far less translation because complete stats have been kept for 100 years, with very similar schedule lengths and relatively little change in statistical trends. This may have something to do with why you don't hear things like that in baseball. But get used to it in hockey. We weren't born yesterday. We realize things are different than they used to be and adjustments are therefore necessary.

Brodeur can not be a better all-time goalie than Roy or Hasek. Know why? He was never better than they were, when all three were playing.
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
16,015
5,290
Oh I forget to add one thing. WHen I said that if a person said he believed that Gerry Cheevers was the best goalie he ever saw play and I said I could not argue with that. I meant I could not argue with the person because he is not going by stats or by what records a person has he is going by what he saw. I would not necessarily agree with him however I never saw Gerry Cheevers play so I could not argue with the person

Well, at that point, I would argue that that person is not being intellectually honest.

Anyways, the main point is that statistics should be used to support an opinion, not be the sole basis of one. If you went by statistics only, Gretzky would easily be the best player/forward in NHL history, Coffey would easily be the best defenseman, and Brodeur would easily be the best goaltender.
 

seventieslord

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Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
Well, at that point, I would argue that that person is not being intellectually honest.

Anyways, the main point is that statistics should be used to support an opinion, not be the sole basis of one. If you went by statistics only, Gretzky would easily be the best player/forward in NHL history, Coffey would easily be the best defenseman, and Brodeur would easily be the best goaltender.

Not necessarily. Coffey and Gretzky could elementarily be argued as the best due to point totals, a very "individual" stat. but Brodeur's wins and shutouts were still very much earned by him and his team so they prove little about him individually.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Hank Aaron

Era adjustment formulas are just a "formal" way of determining objectively who doiminated their era better than whom. "a goal is a goal and a yard is a yard" is blatantly incorrect.

I don't follow baseball or football at all but I am sure that someone has released adjusted statistics demonstrating a player's hitting or slugging dominance compared to the other hitters and sluggers of their eras, and perhaps the same with rushing yards in football. Either way, baseball needs far less translation because complete stats have been kept for 100 years, with very similar schedule lengths and relatively little change in statistical trends. This may have something to do with why you don't hear things like that in baseball. But get used to it in hockey. We weren't born yesterday. We realize things are different than they used to be and adjustments are therefore necessary.

Brodeur can not be a better all-time goalie than Roy or Hasek. Know why? He was never better than they were, when all three were playing.

So Hank Aaron cannot be a better all-time home run hitter than Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson and a few others for the same reason(s) you stated.
 

MakoSlade

Registered User
Nov 17, 2005
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New York City
You really can't argue someone's opinion, and the Brodeur debate is pure opinion. Sure one can come up with numbers and arguments about the era someone played in, but then those "facts" can be easily disputed or argued or contradicted. You can talk about the team each player played on, but all three played for some pretty good teams. Who is better can never, ever be proven. Its all about who you think is better...
 

Canadiens1958

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Hank Aaron

You do realize Hank Aaron lead the majors in home runs in four seasons and was top 5 ten other seasons.

If you ignore the AL which you managed to do. Majors = NL + AL. Aaron led the NL four times in homers. Three times the AL leader in homers hit more. You are welcome to blend the AL and NL for the Top5 which would reduce your claim as well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_leagues.shtml

Point relative to Brodeur is longevity and the final number.Producing day in day out. Simply a question of preferring the steak to the sizzle.
 

seventieslord

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Regina, SK
If you ignore the AL which you managed to do. Majors = NL + AL. Aaron led the NL four times in homers. Three times the AL leader in homers hit more. You are welcome to blend the AL and NL for the Top5 which would reduce your claim as well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_leagues.shtml

Point relative to Brodeur is longevity and the final number.Producing day in day out. Simply a question of preferring the steak to the sizzle.

Final number of wins?

No, that does nothing to differentiate between goalie and team.
 

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