Player Discussion Marner

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Hes always been a slow starter. Absolutely begging him to shoot the puck. You can't be a 12.5M winger and never score 40 goals. He could if he wanted to, it's just not in the DNA. Very frustrating

 

[666]

Mitch Marner after 10 games 1/8th of a season is on pace for a measly 8 goals.

View attachment 923841

Some fans believe Marner's goals scored don't matter much as Leafs losses mount, but he is producing at a 4th line checker level like a David Kampf at present.

Perhaps Treliving can use this disappointing regular season goal production to his leverage advantage in contract talks to get a sharp discount on his next deal, because we all know Marner struggles to score goals in the playoffs with only 11 goals after 8 seasons and 9 playoff series as well.

Willy in his contract year last season stormed out of the gates with 6 goals 8 assists 14 points in his first 10 on the way to a season where he finished with 40 goals and 98 points.

Another hilarious post from the master.

Using the first 10 games of the season to draw any conclusions is absurd but if you're going to try at least use some critical thinking. Now we know that you're referring to only goals but to suggest that 90 points is something that a 4th line checker does is pretty funny. If someone gets 82 assists(only McD, Kuch, and Mack had more last season) then someone else is getting those goals. Guess who it is so far? Hint: knives. Think man.

But then the icing on the cake is to use another 10 game streak but you didn't mention the pace this time because of the huge drop off once Nylander got his contract. This is some real amateur hour stuff here Mess.

The mental gymnastics that the haters need to jump through to discredit Marner is truly fascinating.

 

[thewave]

He spends more time close to the blueline than he does the blue paint. Is the narrative now that Marner is actually a crease crashing netfront guy or something? He’s the definition of a perimeter player, this is not even remotely arguable.

Exactly. Flat Earthers provide more to substantiate their claims then the MM narrative shifters.

He is absolutely a perimeter player.

Another hilarious post from the master.

Using the first 10 games of the season to draw any conclusions is absurd but if you're going to try at least use some critical thinking. Now we know that you're referring to only goals but to suggest that 90 points is something that a 4th line checker does is pretty funny. If someone gets 82 assists(only McD, Kuch, and Mack had more last season) then someone else is getting those goals. Guess who it is so far? Hint: knives. Think man.

But then the icing on the cake is to use another 10 game streak but you didn't mention the pace this time because of the huge drop off once Nylander got his contract. This is some real amatuer hour stuff here Mess.

The mental gymnastics that the haters need to jump through to discredit Marner is truly fascinating.

Most peoples negative observations and opinions on Marner can be traced back comfortably to the MTL series.

 

[666]

Exactly. Flat Earthers provide more to substantiate their claims then the MM narrative shifters.

He is absolutely a perimeter player.



Most peoples negative observations and opinions on Marner can be traced back comfortably to the MTL series.

I know. That flip over the boards just snapped you guys and you've never recovered. It's gotten so bad that some of you have convinced yourselves that Marner sucks in the regular season. Man, it must be terrible for you guys to watch Marner do his magic every night.

 

[Mess]

Marner is supposed to be this great playmaking PP specialist, yet the Leafs are an embarrassing #30th out of 32 teams on the PP with a 9.4%

Even with a 5 on 3 PP advantage and in prime shooting spot with an empty net. Marner refuses to shoot the puck into the wide open cage, but decides to pass.

Even with Marner's muffin of a shot ANY NHL player should be able to put this in the Net to avoid another Loss. As one of the TOP 12 highest paid players in the game SOOO much is expected but this is simply getting painful to watch. This is a 10 foot shot into an empty net !!!!

If this is ANYONE else on the PP in this spot its an obvious goal.

 

[thewave]

I know. That flip over the boards just snapped you guys and you've never recovered. It's gotten so bad that some of you have convinced yourselves that Marner sucks in the regular season. Man, it must be terrible for you guys to watch Marner do his magic every night.

I think he is about 20pts a season overrated because of Matthews. Marner supporters feel Matthews is 20pts overrated because of Marner.

I think tie goes to the rocketman that is also a C and the C of the team.

 

[Nineteen67]

It's all about getting ready for the playoffs for sure. As far as building on the last game, I'm so used to the team going up and down like a bunch of yoyo's all season long (and that carries over to the playoffs), that it's hard to even imagine it going any other way.

The reality is management is banking on him producing in the playoffs, despite history, despite ups and downs throughout the year.
It’s the coaches job to help them prepare, but ultimately it’s up to the players to decide if they want to win.
All we can do is watch and see if it works this time.

 

[ACC1224]

Marner is supposed to be this great playmaking PP specialist, yet the Leafs are an embarrassing #30th out of 32 teams on the PP with a 9.4%

View attachment 923878

Even with a 5 on 3 PP advantage and in prime shooting spot with an empty net. Marner refuses to shoot the puck into the wide open cage, but decides to pass.

View attachment 923882

Even with Marner's muffin of a shot ANY NHL player should be able to put this in the Net to avoid another Loss. As one of the TOP 12 highest paid players in the game SOOO much is expected but this is simply getting painful to watch. This is a 10 foot shot into an empty net !!!!

If this is ANYONE else on the PP in this spot it’s an obvious goal.

 

[666]

I think he is about 20pts a season overrated because of Matthews. Marner supporters feel Matthews is 20pts overrated because of Marner.

I think tie goes to the rocketman that is also a C and the C of the team.

I've posted these stats many times but maybe you haven't seen them:

5v5 over the last 3 seasons to get the sample acceptable:

Player 1	Player 2	Player 3	Player 4	GP	TOI	GF	GA	+/-	GF/60	GA/60	GF%
Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	205	1808	120	74	46	3.98	2.46	61.86
w/o Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	John Tavares	215	889	45	29	16	3.04	1.96	60.81
Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	227	829	50	33	17	3.62	2.39	60.24
w/o Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	John Tavares	237	1559	72	83	-11	2.77	3.19	46.45

Nylander plays with Matthews about as much as Marner plays with Tavares.
Matthews does well with everyone but a bit better offense with Marner.
Marner with Tavares is as good as Nylander is with Matthews. Think about that.
Nylander is horrible with Tavares.

To your point. No one thinks that Matthews is overrated. And you've now been presented with the facts that say that Marner isn't overrated.

 

[ULF_55]

I think some watch games with a hypercritical eye looking to pounce on any misplay.
My eye says the top line has been consistently the best line all year, I'd be surprised if the stats don't show that.

The top line has been the only line with consistent players.

Not sure they have produced their best. I mean actuals, not should haves.

The first line should produce the most, especially while other lines are not even set. What is the 2nd. line? Anyone know?

marner is a better goal scorer than his 10 per season pace, and Matthews isn't a 16 goal even strength player.

Scoring per 60 (5v5, since 2009-10)​

5v5: Goals per 60, Matthews is 5th., marner is 10th.
5v5: Points per 60, Matthews is 9th., marner is 5th.

I think everyone expects that to change as the lines adjusts to the Berube system.

Who know we might even know what lines 2, 3, 4 are within a couple months?

 

[Gary Nylund]

The reality is management is banking on him producing in the playoffs, despite history, despite ups and downs throughout the year.
It’s the coaches job to help them prepare, but ultimately it’s up to the players to decide if they want to win.
All we can do is watch and see if it works this time.

Management is more likely to be "hoping for" than "counting on" unless they're insane, but then again maybe they are insane, who knows.

It's up to the players for sure which is why I'm skeptical that things will be much different under Berube. I guess you could say that I'm hoping that they will be, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[arso40]

I've posted these stats many times but maybe you haven't seen them:

5v5 over the last 3 seasons to get the sample acceptable:

Player 1	Player 2	Player 3	Player 4	GP	TOI	GF	GA	+/-	GF/60	GA/60	GF%
Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	205	1808	120	74	46	3.98	2.46	61.86
w/o Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	John Tavares	215	889	45	29	16	3.04	1.96	60.81
Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	227	829	50	33	17	3.62	2.39	60.24
w/o Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	John Tavares	237	1559	72	83	-11	2.77	3.19	46.45

Nylander plays with Matthews about as much as Marner plays with Tavares.
Matthews does well with everyone but a bit better offense with Marner.
Marner with Tavares is as good as Nylander is with Matthews. Think about that.
Nylander is horrible with Tavares.

To your point. No one thinks that Matthews is overrated. And you've now been presented with the facts that say that Marner isn't overrated.

Makes no sense why is their such a big difference in the toi and I don’t recall them splitting time evenly with Matthews at all

 

[thewave]

I've posted these stats many times but maybe you haven't seen them:

5v5 over the last 3 seasons to get the sample acceptable:

Player 1	Player 2	Player 3	Player 4	GP	TOI	GF	GA	+/-	GF/60	GA/60	GF%
Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	205	1808	120	74	46	3.98	2.46	61.86
w/o Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	John Tavares	215	889	45	29	16	3.04	1.96	60.81
Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	227	829	50	33	17	3.62	2.39	60.24
w/o Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	John Tavares	237	1559	72	83	-11	2.77	3.19	46.45

Nylander plays with Matthews about as much as Marner plays with Tavares.
Matthews does well with everyone but a bit better offense with Marner.
Marner with Tavares is as good as Nylander is with Matthews. Think about that.
Nylander is horrible with Tavares.

To your point. No one thinks that Matthews is overrated. And you've now been presented with the facts that say that Marner isn't overrated.

Thats not correct because Nylander is easily as good a playmaker or very close to Marner. You would have to sample Matthews with some joe like Domi. Then you can establish that.

We also needa current sample of Marner with some joe jobbers. Then we can figure out if MM can turn bronze into gold.

 

[666]

Makes no sense why is their such a big difference in the toi and I don’t recall them splitting time evenly with Matthews at all

Re-read it. Marner plays with Tavares as much as Nylander plays with Matthews (about 33%) but Marner produces equally while Nylander is terrible with Tavares.

edited to add: the stats are /60 stats, they account for unequal toi.

 

[Racer88]

Yes, because he’s the best. I’ll be cheering for the team. “Gimmicky” is a lame way to undercut a simple fact of who are the best Canadians. Just like yesterday when the Selke is somehow meaningless because people can’t go beyond black and white here. Kind of boring, all I do is counter the excessive garbage, I’ve already stated a billion times he failed us in the playoffs. Try it sometime.


Obtuse.

What is the purpose for this 4 nation tournament? Isn’t there already enough international tournaments out there. could it be that it’s just a cash cow for the league and the NHLPA?

 

[666]

Thats not correct because Nylander is easily as good a playmaker or very close to Marner. You would have to sample Matthews with some joe like Domi. Then you can establish that.

We also need a current sample of Marner with some joe jobbers. Then we can figure out MM can turn bronze into gold.

What's not correct? The numbers? The facts? Then why does Nylander suck with Tavares but Marner doesn't? We only have two top 6 right wingers and to top 6 centers and they almost always play with each other. This is reliable data and it confirms the eye test.

 

[Fogelhund]

Marner is supposed to be this great playmaking PP specialist, yet the Leafs are an embarrassing #30th out of 32 teams on the PP with a 9.4%

View attachment 923878

Even with a 5 on 3 PP advantage and in prime shooting spot with an empty net. Marner refuses to shoot the puck into the wide open cage, but decides to pass.

View attachment 923882

Even with Marner's muffin of a shot ANY NHL player should be able to put this in the Net to avoid another Loss. As one of the TOP 12 highest paid players in the game SOOO much is expected but this is simply getting painful to watch. This is a 10 foot shot into an empty net !!!!

If this is ANYONE else on the PP in this spot its an obvious goal.

Imagine taking a TEN game sample, and using it as evidence, after the Leafs PP has been near the tops of the league consistently for years.

No question, something is broken right now, and has been since Marner got injured and missed time last year.

 

[thewave]

What's not correct? The numbers? The facts? Then why does Nylander suck with Tavares but Marner doesn't? We only have two top 6 right wingers and to top 6 centers and they almost always play with each other. This is reliable data and it confirms the eye test.

Show Marners impact on other players in the absence of WN and AM

 

[666]

Show Marners impact on other players in the absence of WN and AM

I did, I showed you his impact on Tavares compared to Nylander. He plays very little time with anyone else.

 

[m1ker]

I've posted these stats many times but maybe you haven't seen them:

5v5 over the last 3 seasons to get the sample acceptable:

Player 1	Player 2	Player 3	Player 4	GP	TOI	GF	GA	+/-	GF/60	GA/60	GF%
Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	205	1808	120	74	46	3.98	2.46	61.86
w/o Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	John Tavares	215	889	45	29	16	3.04	1.96	60.81
Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	227	829	50	33	17	3.62	2.39	60.24
w/o Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	John Tavares	237	1559	72	83	-11	2.77	3.19	46.45

Nylander plays with Matthews about as much as Marner plays with Tavares.
Matthews does well with everyone but a bit better offense with Marner.
Marner with Tavares is as good as Nylander is with Matthews. Think about that.
Nylander is horrible with Tavares.

To your point. No one thinks that Matthews is overrated. And you've now been presented with the facts that say that Marner isn't overrated.

Can you filter this by playoff games and another filter by division only games excluding the canadian division year

 

[Gary Nylund]

What is the purpose for this 4 nation tournament? Isn’t there already enough international tournaments out there. could it be that it’s just a cash cow for the league and the NHLPA?

I don't see what else it could possibly be. International hockey was so awesome in the 70's/80's but boy is it ever boring now. Even the Olympics doesn't compare to what it was like back in the day but this 4 nations thing ... I just can't imagine players care much about this, and it wouldn't surprise me if being picked to play was a disappointment for most of them.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What's not correct? The numbers? The facts? Then why does Nylander suck with Tavares but Marner doesn't? We only have two top 6 right wingers and to top 6 centers and they almost always play with each other. This is reliable data and it confirms the eye test.

Marner's very good in the regular season and the first 4 games of the playoffs, then his effectiveness goes way down. That's the only fact that really matters to most of us who actually care about the playoffs, you go ahead and enjoy your charts though if it makes you happy.

 

[666]

Can you filter this by playoff games and another filter by division only games excluding the canadian division year

I've purposely only gone back 3 years to avoid the Covid years. I've posted playoffs before, the numbers are similar relative to each other but the sample size is too small at 25 games in the last 3 years. Any narrowing down will reduce the sample size and we're already near the line with 829 minutes but feel free to post division only games but I'm not doing that work.

Marner's very good in the regular season and the first 4 games of the playoffs, then his effectiveness goes way down. That's the only fact that really matters to most of us who actually care about the playoffs, you go ahead and enjoy your charts though if it makes you happy.

The adults are talking here Gary.

 

[Nineteen67]

Management is more likely to be "hoping for" than "counting on" unless they're insane, but then again maybe they are insane, who knows.

It's up to the players for sure which is why I'm skeptical that things will be much different under Berube. I guess you could say that I'm hoping that they will be, but I'm not counting on it.

Whatever term you want use. The reality is that he’s on the team and, unless the wheels fall off, he’ll be on the playoff roster and they’re going to try and best utilize his talents.

If he gets pushed out of the playoffs again, they can decide to let him walk if they haven’t re-signed him in season.

 

[m1ker]

I've purposely only gone back 3 years to avoid the Covid years. I've posted playoffs before, the numbers are similar relative to each other but the sample size is too small at 25 games in the last 3 years. Any narrowing down will reduce the sample size and we're already near the line with 829 minutes but feel free to post division only games but I'm not doing that work.


The adults are talking here Gary.

Well the problem I see with the data is our core 4 feast on the games they score 8 goals in against weaker opponents. I also notice that when Matthews and Marner get split up because of a bad stretch, they are put back together in these feast games.

Can also argue that Matthews-Nylander only happens when the team is playing bad