Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[rumman]

I sure hope you're right. Maybe it's all those decades of disappointment that are making me paranoid but I don't share your confidence. I could see Marner refusing to waive, the Leafs not wanting to look mean by pressuring him and in the end they decide letting him walk for nothing would look bad so they resign him, reasoning that JT will be off the books soon enough and that will enable them to fill the holes. For all we know it might not be up to Tre anyway and as long as people are still willing to pay ridiculous prices for tickets, the org might not think that they're "failing" to begin with. They say that winning is the goal, but I'm still pretty sure that winning isn't as important to the org as making money and as long as they're raking it in, they may not want to rock the boat.

Even if they’re smart enough to trade Marner, they’ll probably waste his cap money on another forward when they need to fix the D and G. I’ve said it a million times MLSE is it’s own worst enemy…………

 

[Gary Nylund]

Even if they’re smart enough to trade Marner, they’ll probably waste his cap money on another forward when they need to fix the D and G. I’ve said it a million times MLSE is it’s own worst enemy…………

LOL that would be hilarious, and not in a good way. It would still be an improvement considering how Marner turns into a ghost when the pressure is on like no other player I've ever seen but yeah, that cap space need to go elsewhere.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

After Pelley said "we are not here to sell jerseys", he'd look like a fool if they ran it back.

Absolutely.

Eight years of these greedy, losers is enough. I'd get rid of all of them if could. All the talent in the world and very little heart or guts. No guts, no glory is so true.

I have no problem trading anyone.

I like Nylander now (to me, he can skate (drive play) and shoot). Marner is an OK skater, can't shoot. Matthews can't skate. But I would have 100% traded Nylander on the spot when he held out against the team. I would have offered him a contract and if he wasn't at training camp I would have 100% have traded him. When I got the return I wanted. Otherwise he can sit out a few years.

There is zero chance I pay Marner 10.9. I would have told him that is the AAV demand of someone who doesn't want to be on my team. 100% trade.

There is zero chance I acquire a UFA early in a rebuild. I don't even have a core of players signed. Dubas failed. badly. He's not Brock's finest.

 

[rumman]

LOL that would be hilarious, and not in a good way. It would still be an improvement considering how Marner turns into a ghost when the pressure is on like no other player I've ever seen but yeah, that cap space need to go elsewhere.

I hope Berbe is in Tre’s ear and demanding money be spent to improve the defensive side of the team’s game. Look at Florida, when Bob’s hot they’re pretty much unstoppable, great D and stellar goaltending can take you deep into the playoffs, fancy offensive trickery not so much……

After Pelley said "we are not here to sell jerseys", he'd look like a fool if they ran it back. Eight years of these greedy, losers is enough. I'd get rid of all of them if could. All the talent in the world and very little heart or guts. No guts, no glory is so true.

Just like Tre, we’ll know if Pelley is just another layer of incompetence by September………

 

[nuck]

Even if they’re smart enough to trade Marner, they’ll probably waste his cap money on another forward when they need to fix the D and G. I’ve said it a million times MLSE is it’s own worst enemy…………

If they spent his cap space on a sub $10M forward with physicality in his game I would still take that over bringing him back but I kind of want at least two bodies in for his $12M

 

[rumman]

If they spent his cap space on a sub $10M forward with physicality in his game I would still take that over bringing him back but I kind of want at least two bodies in for his $12M

Yes, it would be much much better, but there’s no right way to do the wrong thing. Spending that cap money on another forward is stupid when the D and G need addressing imo………

 

[myleafs]

I've been a Leafs' fan for many many years. I desperately want them to win a Cup! I really like Matthews, he is a great player. But I would take McDavid over Matthews without even having to think about it.

How is it even a discussion or talking point? Some would still take Matthews over Mcdavid? like holy sh*t.

 

[hullsy47]

How is it even a discussion or talking point? Some would still take Matthews over Mcdavid? like holy sh*t.

Mathews gets paid to score goals
Mcdavid sets a tone for a whole nation
Not close

 

[rumman]

Mathews gets paid to score goals
Mcdavid sets a tone for a whole nation
Not close

One enjoys long summers in the desert, one carries his team as deep as you can go in the playoffs……..

 

[francis246]

Players are always getting faster. McDavid is faster than Orr was 50 years ago, and someone will be faster again in another 50 years, probably long before that. There's more to skating than speed though, Marner for example is an excellent skater despite being slow. But sure McDavid is awesome, not just super fast but also right up there with the best stickhandlers of all time like Perrault, Jagr, Lemieux, Kane, Orr, could list a bunch of guys here really.

I would say that McDavid is not just fastest, but the best overall skater in the league. I don't know who's second best, but I would say that the gap between McDavid and whoever you have at second is much smaller than the gap between Bobby Orr and anyone else. Orr was unreal, he used to skate backward at practice than anyone else could skate going forward. He also had elite hockey sense, on a level with Gretzky. He was so far ahead of his time and a good an example of what's meant by the expression "a man playing with boys". Bobby Orr did things nobody had ever done before, IMO he is still the best skater ever and he changed the way the game was played.

Just curious, did you ever see Bobby Orr play?

You’re right, I agree someone will probably come along and change things.

I did not get to see Orr play live on TV! I’m far too young. Only highlights. I know he was amazing but I think not being able to see him skews my perception for sure

 

[Gary Nylund]

I hope Berbe is in Tre’s ear and demanding money be spent to improve the defensive side of the team’s game. Look at Florida, when Bob’s hot they’re pretty much unstoppable, great D and stellar goaltending can take you deep into the playoffs, fancy offensive trickery not so much……

I assume Tre knows without anyone telling him what needs to be done. The problem is that unless they can move Marner, they don't have the cap space to do it.

Since it's summer time, here's a fun fact about the great Bobby Orr. Orr is 5th all time in PPG, for a defenceman to be that high is completely insane, especially when you consider that you have to go all the way down to 35th to find the next Dman, Paul Coffey. And Coffey was known for being an offensive force, but far from elite when it came to the defensive side of the game. Orr on the other hand was as good on D as he was on offence and he was also as tough a player as there ever was. And while plus minus isn't a great stat in general, its still remarkable that the greatest +- season in history belongs to Bobby Orr who put up +124 in 1970, next best on the team was Dallas Smith at +98 followed by Esposito and Hodge at +69. The next season, Orr was "only" + 83, second best on the team was Esposito at +53.

Bobby Orr was ridiculous. One can only imagine how much better he would have been with two good knees. Actually I can't even imagine, he would just be so far off the charts that it's not possible for me to comprehend.

 

[Shanwhatplan]

How is it even a discussion or talking point? Some would still take Matthews over Mcdavid? like holy sh*t.

Exactly.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You’re right, I agree someone will probably come along and change things.

I did not get to see Orr play live on TV! I’m far too young. Only highlights. I know he was amazing but I think not being able to see him skews my perception for sure

When I was playing road hockey as a kid, if you started in your own end and deked your way through the entire team and scored, that was called a Bobby Orr goal.

The highlights are fun to watch! It's also fun to pick some youtube video and read the comments, you get a pretty good idea of how highly he's regarded. I remember way back when, there was an article in the Globe where a few dozen sports writers picked between Orr and Gretzky for the best ever. It was close but what I remember was interesting was that every single one old enough to have seen Orr play, picked Orr and a ton of the ones too young to have seen Orr play, picked Gretzky to make it close. So I think it's fair to say they were close, and people's votes are influenced by recency bias on the one hand, and nostalgia on the other and it's possible that nostalgia is part of why I picked Orr. But as I said, you could make a case for either of the two IMO and also Lemieux and Howe, I just feel fortunate to have seen them all play. And McDavid too, I've been very unhappy that he hasn't had the team around to him to be able to go deep but now he's there, I'm thrilled that they won last night and I can't wait to see what the Oilers can do in the next game. I never thought he could crack the top 4 all time but now I think it's possible If they can somehow pull off beating Florida for the cup from being down 3-0, that would be an epic piece of history and would improve his chances considerably!

Go Oilers!

 

[rumman]

I assume Tre knows without anyone telling him what needs to be done. The problem is that unless they can move Marner, they don't have the cap space to do it.

Since it's summer time, here's a fun fact about the great Bobby Orr. Orr is 5th all time in PPG, for a defenceman to be that high is completely insane, especially when you consider that you have to go all the way down to 35th to find the next Dman, Paul Coffey. And Coffey was known for being an offensive force, but far from elite when it came to the defensive side of the game. Orr on the other hand was as good on D as he was on offence and he was also as tough a player as there ever was. And while plus minus isn't a great stat in general, its still remarkable that the greatest +- season in history belongs to Bobby Orr who put up +124 in 1970, next best on the team was Dallas Smith at +98 followed by Esposito and Hodge at +69. The next season, Orr was "only" + 83, second best on the team was Esposito at +53.

Bobby Orr was ridiculous. One can only imagine how much better he would have been with two good knees. Actually I can't even imagine, he would just be so far off the charts that it's not possible for me to comprehend.

AND he could defend and hold his own when it came to the rough stuff, truly a generational player..........

 

[Stringer Bell]

Has there been any talk or discussion as to what the rest of the league might pay him on his next contract? What the league sees as the market value for his next contract?

 

[The Masters]

Absolutely.

I have no problem trading anyone.

I like Nylander now (to me, he can skate (drive play) and shoot). Marner is an OK skater, can't shoot. Matthews can't skate. But I would have 100% traded Nylander on the spot when he held out against the team. I would have offered him a contract and if he wasn't at training camp I would have 100% have traded him. When I got the return I wanted. Otherwise he can sit out a few years.

There is zero chance I pay Marner 10.9. I would have told him that is the AAV demand of someone who doesn't want to be on my team. 100% trade.

There is zero chance I acquire a UFA early in a rebuild. I don't even have a core of players signed. Dubas failed. badly. He's not Brock's finest.

This core group got toxified with Dubas. Greed, complacent, no will or desire to win. Nobody should be attached to any players. Very unfortunate but the goal for this new regime (Tre or whoever else takes over) is to build the next wave. If people offer great packages for Matthews/Nylander down the road I would move them and suppliment those assets with the new core.

 

[rumman]

This core group got toxified with Dubas. Greed, complacent, no will or desire to win. Nobody should be attached to any players. Very unfortunate but the goal for this new regime (Tre or whoever else takes over) is to build the next wave. If people offer great packages for Matthews/Nylander down the road I would move them and suppliment those assets with the new core.

agree........

 

[Arzak]

LOL that would be hilarious, and not in a good way. It would still be an improvement considering how Marner turns into a ghost when the pressure is on like no other player I've ever seen but yeah, that cap space need to go elsewhere.

hh he is so scared he turns into a ghost !

 

[Gary Nylund]

hh he is so scared he turns into a ghost !

At least he's a friendly ghost eh?

I'll say it again:

Regular season Marner >>> Regular season Hyman.
Playoff Hyman >>> Playoff Marner.

 

[notbias]

At least he's a friendly ghost eh?

I'll say it again:

Regular season Marner >>> Regular season Hyman.
Playoff Hyman >>> Playoff Marner.

Playoff Marner >>> Playoff Hyman without McDavid

Unfortunately, we saw how bad that version could be here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Playoff Marner >>> Playoff Hyman without McDavid

Unfortunately, we saw how bad that version could be here.

I suspect you are aware of how badly Hyman was injured at times during the playoffs here, you should factor that in to your assessment if you want to be objective. Hyman is also clearly a much better player now than he was then, and the opposite is true of Marner who's playoff performance is on a rather steep downward trajectory.

We also had a glimpse this spring of what playoff Marner without Matthews looks like, holy smokes was that ever bad. An 11 million dollar ghost, lord have mercy.

 

[leafs in five]

Seeing Barclay Goodrow on waivers yesterday showed me, over spending on fringe players is a recipe for disaster.

Florida did not sign any big UFA’s. They made trades and used the waiver wire. Bill Zito’s entire roster is castaways from other teams he bought when their value was low. The only guy he signed I believe was Carter Verhaghe who he signed once Verhaghe left Tampa and Evan Rodrigues. Everyone else was a trade or waiver pick up

OEL. and Rodrigues is one of their best players.

 

[notbias]

I suspect you are aware of how badly Hyman was injured at times during the playoffs here, you should factor that in to your assessment if you want to be objective. Hyman is also clearly a much better player now than he was then, and the opposite is true of Marner who's playoff performance is on a rather steep downward trajectory.

We also had a glimpse this spring of what playoff Marner without Matthews looks like, holy smokes was that ever bad. An 11 million dollar ghost, lord have mercy.

Matthews has been injured for multiple years which drags down Marner's #s both at ES and the PP.

Also, Marner played with an injured Hyman apparently which also drags down his #s.

Marner is actually a great playoff performer but he has played with injured players, I am sure you are aware of this.

Does this work both ways or no?

 

[StevenB]

It may mean nothing but a lot of the top guys from the LA organization have been in Toronto the last few days. They were meant to fly back to Florida yesterday to catch the game but there was an issue with the aircraft. I ran into one of them at my workplace today and although he didn’t come straight out and say they were speaking about a trade we spoke for a while and he made a comment about “working on something” and it falling through because the Leafs “always have to have it their way”

I don’t see any other reason for these guys to meet in person unless they were making a huge deal and there was serious intent on both sides to get a deal done. If anything happens you heard it here first lol

 

[HamiltonNHL]

It may mean nothing but a lot of the top guys from the LA organization have been in Toronto the last few days. They were meant to fly back to Florida yesterday to catch the game but there was an issue with the aircraft. I ran into one of them at my workplace today and although he didn’t come straight out and say they were speaking about a trade we spoke for a while and he made a comment about “working on something” and it falling through because the Leafs “always have to have it their way”

I don’t see any other reason for these guys to meet in person unless they were making a huge deal and there was serious intent on both sides to get a deal done. If anything happens you heard it here first lol

Nice !!!’