Proposal: Marner to Pittsburgh

[Mitch nylander]

That is the offer for Marner with no extension. 1 year of Marner (especially after how he just performed in playoffs) does not net you anything as significant as you’d hope. Guentzel is as good (if not better) and he was just dealt for a pile of B+ assets.

If Marner wants to extend then better assets can be discussed. But even then I seriously doubt Yager is on the table.

As for Rakell, he’s really in there for cap reasons. It’s either him or Smith. The leafs aren’t going to unload Marners massive cap hit without taking back a contract like theirs

My counter offer
Marcus Pettersson (1 year left good #4) ~ worth similar to what Bunting was. Since he's a rental.
Ville Koivunen ~ Same piece as the Bunting deal.
Tristan Broz ~ Former second round pick, like Ponomaryov. But frankly has been on a slightly worse trajectory.
Top 10 protected 1st ~ Lucius + Conditional first, is pretty close to a first in value.

--------------
Pens post trade
Rakell - Crosby - Marner
Bunting - Malkin - Rust
O'Connor - Eller - Puustinen
Nieto/Poulin - Acciari - Puljujarvi

(assuming Smith is moved)

x - Karlsson
Graves - Letang
Ludvig - St. Ivany
POJ

X being - 3.7M or so
---------

Leafs would then have 22M to resign Domi (4), Liljegren (2), Dewar (1.5), Robertson (1) and filling out the Xs.

Knies - Matthews - Domi
McMann - x - Nylander
Robertson - Tavares - Jarnkrok
Holmberg - Kampf - Dewar
Reaves

Rielly - x
Pettersson - Mccabe
Benoit - Liljegren
Timmins

Woll
X

X - Being Brett Pesce or similar defensive RHD (5.5), Chandler Stephenson (6) and a 1b goalie (2).

 

[SEALBound]

Strongly disagree. Kessel was a top ten scorer and showed up in the playoffs. He was the piece that put the Pens over for two cups. Marner hasn’t demonstrated this ability at all.

I agree that I think, at the time, Kessel was the better player - or maybe rather, the player would want to add if given the choice.

Marner's production is hard to ignore but he's doing with Matthews, Nylander, and Tavaras. Kessel was doing with Tyler Bozak.

I seriously doubt the Penguins trade a top-10 pick and if it stays where it currently is, it goes to the Sharks.

If they get 4OV (the only pick they can get in 2024), I would offer it straight up for Marner, with $2mil retained. Toronto then picks between Smith, Jarry, and Graves to take back.

My counter offer
Marcus Pettersson (1 year left good #4) ~ worth similar to what Bunting
Ville Koivunen ~ Same piece as the Bunting deal.
Tristan Broz ~ Former second round pick, like Koivunen.
Top 10 protected 1st ~ Lucius + Conditional first, is pretty close to a first in value.

Not a god damn chance.

 

[ManofSteel55]

It only really seems to make sense because Dubas is Pittsburgh's GM. Pittburgh's top six isn't bad with Sid, Malkin, R. Smith, Rakell, Bunting and Rust, so unless they're hoping to make a powerful 3 scoring line offense, I'm not sure if adding another high priced winger works.

The OP included Rakell, but both Rakell and Marner have trade protection, so its unlikely that both would agree in the same trade. I would suggest that Ryan Graves would need to be involved as a salary dump, but he isn't a player that Toronto needs, and he also has a modified NTC, so that woul d make 3 players needing to waive their NTC in the same deal, unless Graves has a Canadian team on his trade list.

It just seems to big with too many moving parts to be a likely deal. There are teams that should have interest in Marner, but few that can make that type of salary work.

 

[Zbynek]

Why do the Pens want Marner?

They already have enough pass-first options on the power play.

Exactly. Pens need a goal scorer. Much rather get a center who can push Geno to wing. Just because Marner might be in play doesn't mean the Pens should chase after him. We already acquired another 10 million dollar player last summer and I'd rather not do that again.

 

[13pacheco31]

Seven? Why do only Leaf games count? 22 games is not a small sample size. He was a point per game with 13 goals. Those are great numbers.

Marner is a negative in the playoffs. I wouldn’t touch him if I were a contender. He makes sense in a Columbus where maybe he could help get them to the postseason and sell some tickets. But not if you’re trying to win a cup.

I don't think anything is going to help Columbus in the short term. Utah might make sense though

 

[Zbynek]

Marcus Pettersson (1 year left good #4) ~ worth similar to what Bunting

Lol

 

[Mitch nylander]

I agree that I think, at the time, Kessel was the better player - or maybe rather, the player would want to add if given the choice.

Marner's production is hard to ignore but he's doing with Matthews, Nylander, and Tavaras. Kessel was doing with Tyler Bozak.

If they get 4OV (the only pick they can get in 2024), I would offer it straight up for Marner, with $2mil retained. Toronto then picks between Smith, Jarry, and Graves to take back.


Not a god damn chance.

Yea there is certainly not a fit between Toronto and Pittsburgh then.

Jarry and Graves are the last things Toronto needs. Two pieces that don't move the needle, on bloated long-term deals.

Pittsburgh should also not be moving futures with where they are.. Yet that's what they would need to move for a guy who's paced for between 90-110 points for the last six years.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Marner for Karlsson straight up.

This would be the only trade I would entertain as a Pens fan. Not adding another 10+ mil contract to the books.

 

[ITM]

Not a fit.

We'd need a piece like Vince Dunn from Seattle and other pieces.

 

[SEALBound]

Yea there is certainly not a fit between Toronto and Pittsburgh then.

Jarry and Graves are the last things Toronto needs. Two pieces that don't move the needle, on bloated long-term deals.

Pittsburgh should also not be moving futures with where they are.. Yet that's what they would need to move for a guy who's paced for between 90-110 points for the last six years.

Honestly, I think you guys will be disappointed with the return.

He's expensive, he has one year left with uncertainty of resigning, and the recent playoff performance did not help his stock.
'
I think Emp is right in that the Kessel return will be a realistic return - A mid-1st forward, a mid-2nd dman, and a 1st along with a cap dump and retention. But honestly too, Kessel had 7 years on his deal. Marner has one so I think that hurts value too. I don't see Seattle giving up a Vince Dunn. I think teams would be hesitant to give up a young, cost-controlled top pairing dman for Marner.

Penguins might be willing to do it with Pettersson but one would have to assume that they could fill that hole with another trade or a FA signing. So it may have to be a trade that is post-Draft and post-FA. Not exactly ideal for Toronto but it is what it is.

It's just not a good time to trade a guy like Marner. You obviously want top value because he's a top talent, but nearly every facet of leverage Toronto might have (or think they have) is gone or extremely low. The only thing that might spark the conversation is what you pointed out - he's a 90-110pt player...in the regular season. I think that at least gets a GM talking but the ability to sell stops there. Penguins just went through something similar with Guentzel at the TDL.

What you need is a team that has a set top 4 with a guy like Vince Dunn pushing on the 3rd pairing while having a hole in the top 6 and cap space. All with the willingness to take back some cap to even things out, even if it's not the most ideal fit but is still a "need". Again, that would be similar to the idea of the Penguins making you take Jarry. He fills a big time hole but might not be the most ideal player.

 

[Mitch nylander]

Honestly, I think you guys will be disappointed with the return.

He's expensive, he has one year left with uncertainty of resigning, and the recent playoff performance did not help his stock.
'
I think Emp is right in that the Kessel return will be a realistic return - A mid-1st forward, a mid-2nd dman, and a 1st along with a cap dump and retention. But honestly too, Kessel had 7 years on his deal. Marner has one so I think that hurts value too. I don't see Seattle giving up a Vince Dunn. I think teams would be hesitant to give up a young, cost-controlled top pairing dman for Marner.

Penguins might be willing to do it with Pettersson but one would have to assume that they could fill that hole with another trade or a FA signing. So it may have to be a trade that is post-Draft and post-FA. Not exactly ideal for Toronto but it is what it is.

It's just not a good time to trade a guy like Marner. You obviously want top value because he's a top talent, but nearly every facet of leverage Toronto might have (or think they have) is gone or extremely low. The only thing that might spark the conversation is what you pointed out - he's a 90-110pt player...in the regular season. I think that at least gets a GM talking but the ability to sell stops there. Penguins just went through something similar with Guentzel at the TDL.

What you need is a team that has a set top 4 with a guy like Vince Dunn pushing on the 3rd pairing while having a hole in the top 6 and cap space. All with the willingness to take back some cap to even things out, even if it's not the most ideal fit but is still a "need". Again, that would be similar to the idea of the Penguins making you take Jarry. He fills a big time hole but might not be the most ideal player.

The issue is, Pittsburgh has nothing that we would want that they'd be willing to part ways with.

I know, again I'm not expecting the world. I'm just thinking other teams can offer better pieces.

From Seattle I'd expect Adam Larsson (1 year deal) with Yanni Gourde (1 year deal) and a prospect (not named Shane Wright or Ryker Evans) which has been offered by Seattle fans.

 

[JKG33]

I'd gladly ship Marner off to Pittsburgh for relatively little. Relieves the team of his cap hit a year early. I'd happily take Petersson and a pick and call it a day.

0 interest in Karlsson. Wouldn't claim him off waivers.

 

[SEALBound]

The issue is, Pittsburgh has nothing that we would want that they'd be willing to part ways with.

I know, again I'm not expecting the world. I'm just thinking other teams can offer better pieces.

From Seattle I'd expect Adam Larsson (1 year deal) with Yanni Gourde (1 year deal) and a prospect (not named Shane Wright or Ryker Evans) which has been offered by Seattle fans.

I think you say that but realistically, there's quite a bit on the roster that would be appealing for Toronto - Pettersson, Karlsson, Bunting, Rakell, Rust, DOC. Problem though is what the Penguins could realistically afford to give up. No secret that we are light on picks and prospects so more likely than not, we don't make the cupboard clearing offer.

That offer from Seattle would be in the ballpark I think.

 

[13pacheco31]

Honestly, I think you guys will be disappointed with the return.

He's expensive, he has one year left with uncertainty of resigning, and the recent playoff performance did not help his stock.
'
I think Emp is right in that the Kessel return will be a realistic return - A mid-1st forward, a mid-2nd dman, and a 1st along with a cap dump and retention. But honestly too, Kessel had 7 years on his deal. Marner has one so I think that hurts value too. I don't see Seattle giving up a Vince Dunn. I think teams would be hesitant to give up a young, cost-controlled top pairing dman for Marner.

Penguins might be willing to do it with Pettersson but one would have to assume that they could fill that hole with another trade or a FA signing. So it may have to be a trade that is post-Draft and post-FA. Not exactly ideal for Toronto but it is what it is.

It's just not a good time to trade a guy like Marner. You obviously want top value because he's a top talent, but nearly every facet of leverage Toronto might have (or think they have) is gone or extremely low. The only thing that might spark the conversation is what you pointed out - he's a 90-110pt player...in the regular season. I think that at least gets a GM talking but the ability to sell stops there. Penguins just went through something similar with Guentzel at the TDL.

What you need is a team that has a set top 4 with a guy like Vince Dunn pushing on the 3rd pairing while having a hole in the top 6 and cap space. All with the willingness to take back some cap to even things out, even if it's not the most ideal fit but is still a "need". Again, that would be similar to the idea of the Penguins making you take Jarry. He fills a big time hole but might not be the most ideal player.

Any trade would likely be contingent on an extension agreement first or else he probably won't even lift his no trade clause

 

[SEALBound]

Any trade would likely be contingent on an extension agreement first or else he probably won't even lift his no trade clause

And that's a double-edged sword. He was willing to hold out for the big payday. I see no reason why he wouldn't hold out for every last dime he could. None of the Core 4 are "sign team-friendly deals" kind of guys. So I imagine the next contract you're going to have to be willing to put up the $11.5-12mil paychecks for several years.

That could scare a lot of teams away.

 

[Mitch nylander]

I think you say that but realistically, there's quite a bit on the roster that would be appealing for Toronto - Pettersson, Karlsson, Bunting, Rakell, Rust, DOC. Problem though is what the Penguins could realistically afford to give up. No secret that we are light on picks and prospects so more likely than not, we don't make the cupboard clearing offer.

That offer from Seattle would be in the ballpark I think.

We're not interested in EK or Rakell's becuase long-term contracts would handcuff our cap even more. EK especially, he leaves us with less money to spend than Marner LOL. Also is DOC even as good or better than Knies, Robertson or McMann, all who have better production. I don't really think a 25 year old 3rd line grinder, who's a good pker moves the needle much.

I'd imagine you guys wouldn't be interested in moving Michael Bunting or Bryan Rust. Which makes this deal far more difficult to comes to terms with. It leaves one guy Marcus Pettersson, but the issue is he's a good #4d who becomes a free agent which means you would need to add things you probably won't want to add.

 

[SEALBound]

We're not interested in EK or Rakell's becuase long-term contracts would handcuff our cap even more. EK especially, he leaves us with less money to spend than Marner LOL. Also is DOC even as good or better than Knies, Robertson or McMann, all who have better production. I don't really think a 25 year old 3rd line grinder, who's a good pker moves the needle much.

I'd imagine you guys wouldn't be interested in moving Michael Bunting or Bryan Rust. Which makes this deal far more difficult to comes to terms with. It leaves one guy Marcus Pettersson, but the issue is he's a good #4d who becomes a free agent which means you would need to add things you probably won't want to add.

EK has three years, Rakell has four.

You're not getting something short in free agency. MM or EK is a swap in position. Rakell making $5mil with the cap going up is more than reasonable and will in no way "handcuff" a team looking to add a Top 6 wing. EK, fine - yeah $10mil is a lot. Rakell though...no idea what you're talking about.

You have DOC in Knies but DOC can play up and down the line up well and really starting to blossom into a quality player. Adding him on any of the lines fronts the Leafs to put more money into the rest of the roster. But in all honesty, that's pretty much the reason we would want to keep him.

 

[Extra Texture]

Only way I would do this from a Pens perspective is if it involves no significant futures. No first rounder, no Pickering, no Yeager, certainly not all of them.

The way I see it, Pens are past the point of "rolling the dice". EK65 was the dice roll. It failed for them, but not bc of the player or idea, IMO. So unless Sullivan gets fired like this summer, this team is coasting downhill to the lottery places. By all means, they should make moves, but hockey trades only. Not moves at the cost of the future.

Now something along the lines of Marner for EK, as a base, I could get down with. Toronto gets a guy who is still a premier puck mover, and probably puts him in a better position to succeed. They do it at the cost of a star, but its a gamble. Maybe the Pens retain 1-2M, payback for the retention on Kessel. But I'm sure the Leafs could find a better deal than that out. With less risk to themselves involved.

I think Karlsson to Toronto might be the success story many thought EK to Pittsburgh would be: a multi-threat gamebreaker on the blueline feeding offensive stars in their prime. The guy still has immense skills. Leafs PP was 7th ranked in the regular season. Not 31st, being coached by some washout numbskull under the umbrella of his teflon buddy of a coach.

 

[VanOriginal]

You know Dubas loves his TO boy Mitch , he'll overpay to get him, which is a shame for the Pens. Just getting rid of that cancer and his cap hit from TO is a win for the Leafs. Whatever TO gets just take it and run

 

[57special]

Rickard Rakell
Tristan Jarry
Owen Pickering
2024 1st


For Mitch Marner

Jarry essentially cancels out the 1st, so you are offering Rakell and Pickering. Don't see the Leafs going for that.

Marner for Karlsson straight up.

Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

 

[pth2]

I'd imagine that a 3rd team would probably have to get involved, to give the Leafs something that they can really use; and/or provide some retention on Marner... or maybe Dubas takes the approach of using his ability to take on Marner's cap hit without retention as their "X factor"; and it's something like O'Connor, Yager, and Graves.

Given that Kent Hughes had many dealings with Treliving in Calgary, and has acted as a 3d party for Dubas already in the Karlsson trade, I wonder if there's a way Montreal gets involved to facilitate the deal and take a cut somehow. Montreal has cap flexibility and isn't under great pressure to win now, so there's flexibility there. I have no active suggestions about who could be involved, though, but the people involved are all able to work together, and we know GMs tend to make deals with the same GMs repeatedly.

 

[Turin]

Jarry essentially cancels out the 1st, so you are offering Rakell and Pickering. Don't see the Leafs going for that.


Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Tbh I don’t think that high of Tre so I think he might not view Jarry as a negative lol. But I would take Jarry out of the deal

 

[seanlinden]

Given that Kent Hughes had many dealings with Treliving in Calgary, and has acted as a 3d party for Dubas already in the Karlsson trade, I wonder if there's a way Montreal gets involved to facilitate the deal and take a cut somehow. Montreal has cap flexibility and isn't under great pressure to win now, so there's flexibility there. I have no active suggestions about who could be involved, though, but the people involved are all able to work together, and we know GMs tend to make deals with the same GMs repeatedly.

Quite true, and good call.

Obviously the easy way is Montreal retains salary only and gets a pick.... the question for me would be, wahat does Montreal have that fits Toronto's needs, and in turn, what does Pittsburgh have that would meet Montreal's needs?

 

[57special]

And that's a double-edged sword. He was willing to hold out for the big payday. I see no reason why he wouldn't hold out for every last dime he could. None of the Core 4 are "sign team-friendly deals" kind of guys. So I imagine the next contract you're going to have to be willing to put up the $11.5-12mil paychecks for several years.

That could scare a lot of teams away.

Yup. Teams like Utah, maybe, who are looking to make a splash, and have cap space, but would Marner waive to go there? He will want to go to a team that has Cup aspirations. After next year he might have to choose between a team that will pay him what he wants (11M+) and a team that is a contender, but he will worry about that then.

Really, I think the play for Toronto is to keep him unless a good deal falls in their lap. Taking on a Jones or EK salary would be flat out dumb. Marner has been close a to a P/pg in the playoffs. It's important that they don't overreact to one series of playoff hockey.

 

[seanlinden]

That is the offer for Marner with no extension. 1 year of Marner (especially after how he just performed in playoffs) does not net you anything as significant as you’d hope. Guentzel is as good (if not better) and he was just dealt for a pile of B+ assets.

If Marner wants to extend then better assets can be discussed. But even then I seriously doubt Yager is on the table.

As for Rakell, he’s really in there for cap reasons. It’s either him or Smith. The leafs aren’t going to unload Marners massive cap hit without taking back a contract like theirs

Anywhere that Marner goes, is highly, highly likely to be somewhere that he would want to extend with.

As for Rakell, obviously Smith would be a better fit... but a 31-32 Overall and Pickering doesn't really move the needle for a player of Mitch Marner's calibre.