Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XV (continued)

[Notsince67]

Exactly.

Is Matty as good as Gretzky, Lemiux and Ovie? Inquiring minds want to know

 

[MattySnipes]

The article makes it seem like guys like Marner are so rare, yet guys like Matthews are common, when he mentions the same number of current NHL playmakers (Crosby and McDavid) as he does current NHL goal scorers (Stamkos and Ovechkin).

And at the very end, when it says whether you would prefer Hull over Oates, Ovechkin over Crosby, etc., I also found that ironic... Because while they think you should take the creative playmaker, the real answer to that question is you take the center who is capable of scoring goals and making plays... Which is exactly what Matthews is.

Yeah exactly. I don't read too much into these articles. Seems more of a way that they're trying to pit our players against each other which I'm against. They seem to know that a large part of our fanbase (atleast on HFB) are more "fans" of particular players than the team itself. Which is sad.

 

[diceman934]

@rielledup

"Also, when can you think of another example where a great player who is supposedly carrying or inflating a lesser players numbers actually ends up with less points than that player? It never works that way."

While you may be right that it doesn't happen that often we are talking about 6 total points. Marner with 94. Tavares with 88. On top, it's less than 6 points because Marner got 3 of those points short-handed without JT.

91 vs. 88?

I won't say Marner is a lesser player and has to be carried. He is a great player with some flaws like any player and playing with JT definitely helped his totals.

On the flip side JT playing with a quality player like Mitch helped him too a bit. One player doesn't HAVE TO make another player better. In some cases they both make each other better, if that makes sense.

Lol. Did JT nor get any points without Marner is that your take. It makes Marner worth more. Marner made him a goal scorer our best goal scorer by the way. No one JT ever played with did that for him. Your minimizing his point totals is laughable and transparent. He out produced him period.

 

[MattySnipes]

Is Matty as good as Gretzky, Lemiux and Ovie? Inquiring minds want to know

That chart shows he is Top 5 (era-adjusted) when considering only goals per games played.

 

[MattySnipes]

Lol. Did JT nor get any points without Marner is that your take. It makes Marner worth more. Marner made him a goal scorer our best goal scorer by the way. No one JT ever played with did that for him. Your minimizing his point totals is laughable and transparent. He out produced him period.

They both make each other better. However if I had to pick only one, I'd give Tavares a slight edge.

 

[diceman934]

Is Matty as good as Gretzky, Lemiux and Ovie? Inquiring minds want to know

They very well could be. Don't know the guy.

The post I attached is not a take of any sort. He is simply responding to the article one of you posted in this thread mentioning playmakers are more valuable than goalscorers and how apparently AM34 is nothing more than a trigger man, while Marner is a 66/99. Are you kidding me?

All those claims he says, "without any actual data to back any of it up."

He never said Mathews was nothing more then a trigger man. He said he is a goal scorer and his stats support that opinion.

He simply stated that play makers make players that play with them better and he did support his opinion with facts.

 

[rielledup]

Well, why the sudden point total dropoff? He was carrying first-line responsibility this year with more minutes and opportunities, just like Marner will be expected to do on another team. Will he have a Tarveras as his centre, will he have a Matthews to take up the other teams top players? Not likely...

Are you unaware of the fact that last year they played a very wide open style and this year Trotz had them playing a very conservative defence first system?

 

[diceman934]

They both make each other better. However if I had to pick only one, I'd give Tavares a slight edge.

lol of course you would. It is Marner by more then a little.

 

[Notsince67]

That chart shows he is Top 5 (era-adjusted) when considering only goals per games played.

Its a funny stat that. To find a stat as obscure as that and put those names up next to Mattys with the message that Marner will never make as much....Because Matty is up there with these guys?
It is friggin hilareous. Waiting for him to say Matty is worth more than Ovie at that age because Ovie is a winger and he is a center.

 

[Notsince67]

Are you unaware of the fact that last year they played a very wide open style and this year Trotz had them playing a very conservative defence first system?

A big woops on the Marner drop off in points lol

 

[ORRFForever]

Comparible to Ovi? I figure he was more valuable because he is a center....right? Isnt that what you said?
Love the Gretzky comparison too. Lets forget Gretzky started pro at 17.

Auston Matthews will NEVER need Roberto Luongo to pump up his tires because the posters at HF do it on an hourly basis.

I have NEVER seen a fan base overrate a player like Auston Matthews is overrated here. Unreal.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Comparible to Ovi? I figure he was more valuable because he is a center....right? Isnt that what you said?
Love the Gretzky comparison too. Lets forget Gretzky started pro at 17.

What does that have to do with the numbers in the chart?

 

[diceman934]

The article makes it seem like guys like Marner are so rare, yet guys like Matthews are common, when he mentions the same number of current NHL playmakers (Crosby and McDavid) as he does current NHL goal scorers (Stamkos and Ovechkin).

And at the very end, when it says whether you would prefer Hull over Oates, Ovechkin over Crosby, etc., I also found that ironic... Because while they think you should take the creative playmaker, the real answer to that question is you take the center who is capable of scoring goals and making plays... Which is exactly what Matthews is.

You take the better player period. It is not that difficulty of a concept.

 

[ORRFForever]

According to TSN...

https://www.tsn.ca/video/mirtle-leafs-can-fit-marner-on-current-roster-at-10m-or-less~1726472

there is $10M available for Marner. If it was me, I would take the money and run. If Marner wants another $500K, perhaps the Leafs find a way - but I'm no Salary Cap expert.

 

[diceman934]

Auston Matthews will NEVER need Roberto Luongo to pump up his tires because the posters at HF do it on an hourly basis.

I have NEVER seen a fan base overrate a player like Auston Matthews is overrated here. Unreal.

Quoted for truth. He is a great player but he is so over rated in here. Marner is our best player and he is being attacked and minimize by the same posters who said that Nylander and Now Mathews is better. Look at the post stating who will lead the team in scoring. If all are healthy it will again be Marner. He drives our offence.

 

[ToDavid]

He never said Mathews was nothing more then a trigger man. He said he is a goal scorer and his stats support that opinion.

He simply stated that play makers make players that play with them better and he did support his opinion with facts.

That article is very light on facts. It's kind of telling that the "playmakers" he used as examples are among the best goal scorers to play the game. Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid aren't valuable because they're playmakers, they're valuable because they're freaks of nature who are good at all aspects of the game. They're all extremely good goal scorers.

Nick Backstrom would be an example of a playmaker. Amazing player, but no one is taking him over Ovechkin.

 

[diceman934]

According to TSN...

https://www.tsn.ca/video/mirtle-leafs-can-fit-marner-on-current-roster-at-10m-or-less~1726472

there is $10M available for Marner. If it was me, I would take the money and run. If Marner wants another $500K, perhaps the Leafs find a way - but I'm no Salary Cap expert.

So the Leafs are leaking info.

 

[diceman934]

That article is very light on facts. It's kind of telling that the "playmakers" he used as examples are among the best goal scorers to play the game. Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid aren't valuable because they're playmakers, they're valuable because they're freaks of nature who are good at all aspects of the game. They're all extremely good goal scorers.

Nick Backstrom would be an example of a playmaker. Amazing player, but no one is taking him over Ovechkin.

Did you read what the article said. I think you did not. The author said he takes ovi or his center.

 

[MattySnipes]

lol of course you would. It is Marner by more then a little.

I'd love to give the edge to Marner but he still has more to prove, imo. No slight against him.

Tavares has put up 80+ points 3 other times before Marner was even in the picture. JT's shooting percentage this past year was also higher than years past at 16.4% (since 12-13 @ 17.3%). I'm sure that also helped Marner's assist totals some.

 

[biotk]

Comparible to Ovi? I figure he was more valuable because he is a center....right? Isnt that what you said?
Love the Gretzky comparison too. Lets forget Gretzky started pro at 17.

That is based on the first 3 seasons in the NHL, not WHA. Gretzky was younger at the start of his NHL career than Matthews - by 133 days. The other 3 were all older than Matthews - by 196 days (Lindros), 358 days (Ovechkin) and 1165 days (Selanne)

 

[ORRFForever]

Quoted for truth. He is a great player but he is so over rated in here.

HF Matthews fans are like the guy who brags endlessly about how gorgeous his wife is, and then you meet her and she's just a little above average, and you think What The Hell!?!?

 

[MattySnipes]

Its a funny stat that. To find a stat as obscure as that and put those names up next to Mattys with the message that Marner will never make as much....Because Matty is up there with these guys?
It is friggin hilareous. Waiting for him to say Matty is worth more than Ovie at that age because Ovie is a winger and he is a center.

No one is making comparisons to OV, Super Mario, or Gretz.

It's simply a chart, that shows who has scored the most goals per games played in last 3 years. Matthews just so happens to be TOP 5. Looking too much into it, imo.

 

[Kiwi]

Comparible to Ovi? I figure he was more valuable because he is a center....right? Isnt that what you said?
Love the Gretzky comparison too. Lets forget Gretzky started pro at 17.

The fact his name is in a conversation with Gretzky and Lindros because of his goal scoring shows just how much of a unicorn he is, that's the elite of the elite little fella

Ovi isn't a comparable, he's a winger and less valuable that Matthews

It's not that difficult to understand, just read that beautiful beautiful list

 

[Menzinger]

Auston Matthews will NEVER need Roberto Luongo to pump up his tires because the posters at HF do it on an hourly basis.

I have NEVER seen a fan base overrate a player like Auston Matthews is overrated here. Unreal.

He literally has the most 5v5 goals in the NHL over the last three years - despite being injured 2/3 years. Hes arguably the best goal scorer in the NHL.

The fact that people even think its debatable hes anything but the best player on the team is fairly crazy imo

 

[MattySnipes]

Quoted for truth. He is a great player but he is so over rated in here. Marner is our best player and he is being attacked and minimize by the same posters who said that Nylander and Now Mathews is better. Look at the post stating who will lead the team in scoring. If all are healthy it will again be Marner. He drives our offence.

Imo, leading your team in points doesn't automatically make you the best player on the team. Responsibilities, usage, etc play a larger part in determining who that is. I'd say right now, that's Tavares/Matthews.