Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XIV

[SprDaVE]

Another day, another thread.

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[BoredBrandonPridham]

There was discussion at the end of previous thread indicating Marner is not good defensively. Another indicated he's good defensively but "not in terms of Selke".

Stone during his ELC (Mark Stone Stats | Hockey-Reference.com):
1 x Selke-46 (Year 3)

Marner during his ELC (Mitch Marner Stats | Hockey-Reference.com):
1 x Selke-14 (Year 3)

I haven't really looked at this, but it would be interesting to see what other wingers got Selke nominations during their ELCs?

Who do we consider wingers that are good defensively "in terms of Selke"?

 

[Sypher04]

Not in the sense of Selke Trophy awards, but he is excellent at take ways, delaying the play and getting in the way of shots. That double block of two shots from the point to end the game in the Boston series is really indicative of what Marner brings defensivly. He one of our elite players and he is doing every thing he can to prevent the puck getting to the net, that mindset, that compete is IMO what makes him a good defensive player.

I don't really entirely agree with this if I'm being honest.
Takeaways yup, he's great. Delaying the play isn't what I would call a defensive trait, as much as a strength of patient offensive players.

I agree on him being an elite player and I like his willingness to, in the important moment, sacrifice the body. I'll never question his compete level.

But, I don't think in any way does that double block shot against Boston represent what he brings defensively. Because that was an exception to the rule, not the norm at all.
Marner simply does not block shots at anything you could call a high rate. That's fine, I don't want him dropping in front of several pucks a game, but I feel like your statement paints a picture that's not true of how Marner plays in this regard.

 

[Sypher04]

There was discussion at the end of previous thread indicating Marner is not good defensively. Another indicated he's good defensively but "not in terms of Selke".

Stone during his ELC (Mark Stone Stats | Hockey-Reference.com):
1 x Selke-46 (Year 3)

Marner during his ELC (Mitch Marner Stats | Hockey-Reference.com):
1 x Selke-14 (Year 3)

I haven't really looked at this, but it would be interesting to see what other wingers got Selke nominations during their ELCs?

Who do we consider wingers that are good defensively "in terms of Selke"?

Anyone who voted for Marner for the Selke should in all honestly probably have their voting privileges revoked. He's not even remotely close to the top defensive forwards in the game.

And again, to be clear, I love Mitch Marner and this is in no way meant as a slight.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Anyone who voted for Marner for the Selke should in all honestly probably have their voting privileges revoked. He's not even remotely close to the top defensive forwards in the game.

And again, to be clear, I love Mitch Marner and this is in no way meant as a slight.

Matthews also received a Selke nomination in his first year in the league. He wasn't 14th (I believe he was like 33rd), but that says something about his defensive game too, especially since I think his defensive game has only improved since his rookie year.

Marner should not have been 14th. Maybe he could have slipped in on the ballot, but he's no where near the 14th best defensive forward in the league (even out of the guys who are not pure defensive forwards). He's not even the best defensive forward on our team (arguably not even top 3), but I guess to qualify for the Selke you need to be more than just a good defensive forward.

 

[Notsince67]

Matthews also received a Selke nomination in his first year in the league. He wasn't 14th (I believe he was like 33rd), but that says something about his defensive game too, especially since I think his defensive game has only improved since his rookie year.

Marner should not have been 14th. Maybe he could have slipped in on the ballot, but he's no where near the 14th best defensive forward in the league (even out of the guys who are not pure defensive forwards). He's not even the best defensive forward on our team (arguably not even top 3), but I guess to qualify for the Selke you need to be more than just a good defensive forward.

You need a few tools like Simmons to vote for you

 

[Nithoniniel]

Anyone who voted for Marner for the Selke should in all honestly probably have their voting privileges revoked. He's not even remotely close to the top defensive forwards in the game.

And again, to be clear, I love Mitch Marner and this is in no way meant as a slight.

Yeah, exactly. Never understood why people put any weight at all on stray votes for awards like Selke. The only thing that matters is someone actually thought Marner is a top 5 defensive forward in the league, and the only thing that means is that someone is so ignorant that they really shouldn't get to vote on things like these.

The case for Marner being good defensively should start with his impact on the PK.

@Bluelines

You wrote at the end of the last thread that the double block Marner had in the playoffs is indicative of his defensive value. I wonder why you would say that given that he's one of the least frequent shot blockers on the team?

 

[TheProspector]

It's 9am on July 8th. Do you know where your offer sheet is?

 

[ACC1224]

Like any smart, elite, high energy player Marner is very good defensively but I don't think he will ever be considered excellent, elite or Selke worthy.
To be in that class you have to have naturally think defense first and that's not Mitch's nature nor as fans would we want it to be.
You could certainly trust him to be on the ice in the dying minutes protecting a lead.
What more would you want?

 

[Mess]

Dubas is young. He admitted making mistakes on the Nylander contract/holdout. Facing offersheet potential for Matthews he gave 8 year term money to him on a 5 year deal.

Anyone think he needs this Marner contract to be a win? I mean he can't be taken to the woodshed again. No agent will ever take him seriously. It would be career suicide.

If Dubas holds on long enough for Marner to get an actual offersheet, which is therefore more than he is willing to pay Marner himself, and them matches it, Dubas will have gone 0-3 on resigning the 3 Amigos.

One held out until Dubas caved, one used the fear of an OS to get his new deal and then IF the third actually gets another team to overpay him and have Dubas match to get what he wants.

3 different methods same bad end result for Leafs and Dubas.

So for Dubas to change the narrative of striking out on all 3, he really needs to get Marner on a NHL comparative deal not Leaf comparative that makes sense, when held up to the light of what other players on his level make around the league.

If Dubas got Marner signed for $9.5 mil AAV (= +$1 mil more than Aho, and not more than Kucherov top scoring winger in the game) on a minimum of 6 years I'd declare Kyle with the WIN.

All other options likely seen as a loss.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Another day, another thread.

Almost up to XVI!

 

[57 Years No Cup]

It's 9am on July 8th. Do you know where your offer sheet is?

I wish I could photoshop. I could do this missing offer sheet thing on a milk carton.

 

[Macallan18]

Yeah, exactly. Never understood why people put any weight at all on stray votes for awards like Selke. The only thing that matters is someone actually thought Marner is a top 5 defensive forward in the league, and the only thing that means is that someone is so ignorant that they really shouldn't get to vote on things like these.

The case for Marner being good defensively should start with his impact on the PK.

@Bluelines

You wrote at the end of the last thread that the double block Marner had in the playoffs is indicative of his defensive value. I wonder why you would say that given that he's one of the least frequent shot blockers on the team?

Quit confusing the issues with facts. They are a complete waste on Bluelines.

 

[ToneDog]

If Dubas holds on long enough for Marner to get an actual offersheet, that is therefore more than he is willing to pay Marner himself, and them matches it, Dubas will have gone 0-3 on resigning the 3 Amigos.

One held out until Dubas caved, one used the fear of an OS to get his new deal and then IF the third actually gets another team to overpay him and have Dubas match to get what he wants.

3 different methods same bad end result for Leafs and Dubas.

So for Dubas to change the narrative of striking out on all 3, he really needs to get Marner on a NHL comparative deal not Leaf comparative that makes sense, when held up to the light of what other players on his level make around the league.

If Dubas got Marner signed for $9.5 mil AAV (= +$1 mil more than Aho, and not more than Kucherov top scoring winger in the game) on a minimum of 6 years I'd declare Kyle with the WIN.

All other options likely seen as a loss.

The Kyle Dubas hat trick ???

 

[Nineteen67]

It's 9am on July 8th. Do you know where your offer sheet is?

I think Marner turned one down from at least one team and wouldn’t talk to others.

 

[Macallan18]

I think Marner turned one down from at least one team and wouldn’t talk to others.

who do you think and what numbers?
I understand just speculation and gut feelings, but whatever you think I am interested.
I suspect he has too, which is why all the hype ended in nothing.
Can you imagine if the best offer sheet was at 8.5? Kinda would sink Marner's crazy ask.

 

[SprDaVE]

It's 9am on July 8th. Do you know where your offer sheet is?

"I'm told it will probably happen today... maybe... but maybe not! But it's a real possibility... probably... maybe? Here's my article and follow me on twitter "

 

[BillyD]

I think Marner turned one down from at least one team and wouldn’t talk to others.

if true, there is no chance Marner camp wouldn't have leaked that to Dreger

 

[Marshy]

If Dubas holds on long enough for Marner to get an actual offersheet, that is therefore more than he is willing to pay Marner himself, and them matches it, Dubas will have gone 0-3 on resigning the 3 Amigos.

One held out until Dubas caved, one used the fear of an OS to get his new deal and then IF the third actually gets another team to overpay him and have Dubas match to get what he wants.

3 different methods same bad end result for Leafs and Dubas.

So for Dubas to change the narrative of striking out on all 3, he really needs to get Marner on a NHL comparative deal not Leaf comparative that makes sense, when held up to the light of what other players on his level make around the league.

If Dubas got Marner signed for $9.5 mil AAV (= +$1 mil more than Aho, and not more than Kucherov top scoring winger in the game) on a minimum of 6 years I'd declare Kyle with the WIN.

All other options likely seen as a loss.

No argument here. Can he do it? If he can't, Marner has to go right? Surely?

 

[Pookie]

It's 9am on July 8th. Do you know where your offer sheet is?

Same place as all those draft picks folks are working themselves into a lather about.

Going to have to saddle up to the table and pay the player.

 

[Nineteen67]

who do you think and what numbers?
I understand just speculation and gut feelings, but whatever you think I am interested.
I suspect he has too, which is why all the hype ended in nothing.
Can you imagine if the best offer sheet was at 8.5? Kinda would sink Marner's crazy ask.

I’m guessing it was under 11 million and or 7 yrs. NYI or NJ.

Based solely on Too many people seeing too much smoke last week

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

"The longer this goes on, the more likely X is going to happen. Several sources are strongly considering Y. Marner's camp however, wants less term and more money"

 

[Nineteen67]

if true, there is no chance Marner camp wouldn't have leaked that to Dreger

I think they’d keep it quiet.

 

[Mess]

The Kyle Dubas hat trick ???

LOL ... That is exactly what I was actually thinking when I typed that line.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Looks like all the BS from last week has flushed away. Now Mitch won't sign a 7 year 12.5M OS. It has to be 5 years. This Ferris guy is a joke. Well I talked to Paul at a BBQ pool party yesterday for quite some time over coronas as we normally do. He was very quiet and did not really have much to say about anything which i expected. He is abiding by the code of silence requested by Shanny. Bonnie was her ever LOL best. Loads of fun on a beautiful day. thanks ralfie.