Player Discussion Marco Rossi

[AKL]

Obligatory "Sean Monahan > Kucherov, Draisaitl, McDavid, Crosby, Eichel, Matthews and MacKinnon in P/60 this year".

Ope

 

[DigitalBoldy]

Obligatory "Sean Monahan > Kucherov, Draisaitl, McDavid, Crosby, Eichel, Matthews and MacKinnon in P/60 this year".

Hardcore pro Rossi people aren't interested in having a fair and legitimate discussion.

If you had a time machine and were able to insert 23 year old Rossi in Eriksson Ek's position, do you think he is still putting up 60 points?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Hardcore pro Rossi people aren't interested in having a fair and legitimate discussion.

If you had a time machine and were able to insert 23 year old Rossi in Eriksson Ek's position, do you think he is still putting up 60 points?

I do not.

I also don't think 23 year old Eriksson Ek puts up 60 playing in Rossi's spot this year, if I can make the time machine go the other direction.

I don't think 23 year old Ek's game was suited to play with skilled/highly skilled players. I'm actually not 100% certain that 28 year old Ek's game is suited to play with skilled/highly skilled players.

 

[DigitalBoldy]

I do not.

I also don't think 23 year old Eriksson Ek puts up 60 playing in Rossi's spot this year, if I can make the time machine go the other direction.

I don't think 23 year old Ek's game was suited to play with skilled/highly skilled players. I'm actually not 100% certain that 28 year old Ek's game is suited to play with skilled/highly skilled players.

We will never know because he was never given the opportunity. Exactly why it is ridiculous to compare their 23 year old seasons.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

I do not.

I also don't think 23 year old Eriksson Ek puts up 60 playing in Rossi's spot this year, if I can make the time machine go the other direction.

I don't think 23 year old Ek's game was suited to play with skilled/highly skilled players. I'm actually not 100% certain that 28 year old Ek's game is suited to play with skilled/highly skilled players.

But numbers are proof of everything and actual game play has nothing to do with hockey.

 

[MNRube]

@DigitalBoldy is this more or less the lineup you want to see for next year?

Kap-JEE-Zucc
Boldy-Yurov-Peterka/Rossi
Ohgren-Pageau-Hartman
Foligno-Gaudreau-Trenin

i think that’s a good team when you factor in the blueline. Maybe not we hoped for a year ago but also a respectable lineup capable of making some noise

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

We will never know because he was never given the opportunity. Exactly why it is ridiculous to compare their 23 year old seasons.

Can't compare 23 y/o to 23 y/o.

Can't compare 23 y/o (2 seasons) to 28 y/o (8 seasons).

One might say they're... incomparable.

 

[AKL]

Can't compare 23 y/o to 23 y/o.

Can't compare 23 y/o (2 seasons) to 28 y/o (8 seasons).

One might say they're... incomparable.

Can we contrast then?

Ek is a defensive leaning center who didn't play with top line players at 23 because we had someone better at the time, and then played with top line players at 27 because we had no one better at the time

Rossi is an offensive leaning center who played with top line players because he was the someone better this time

But fine, if we can't compare 23 year old season to 23 year old season because it doesn't favor Ek, let's just say it like this:

Rossi at 23 and Ek at 27 scored the same
Ek at 27 scored way more and is a way better player than Ek at 23
So Rossi at 27 will probably also score more and be a better player than Rossi at 23
So Rossi at 27 will score way more than Ek at 27

Or what we could do is look at Ek's scoring at 28 without Kaprizov:
42gp, 24 points (granted some of this was PP with Kaprizov)

And then also look at Rossi's scoring at 23 without Kaprizov:
47gp, 32 points

And we won't compare them, we'll just look.

 

[DigitalBoldy]

@DigitalBoldy is this more or less the lineup you want to see for next year?

Kap-JEE-Zucc
Boldy-Yurov-Peterka/Rossi
Ohgren-Pageau-Hartman
Foligno-Gaudreau-Trenin

i think that’s a good team when you factor in the blueline. Maybe not we hoped for a year ago but also a respectable lineup capable of making some noise

Swap Rossi and Zucc and you pretty much nailed it. Assess at the halfway point of next season if swapping Yurov to wing and Rossi to the 2C (or 1C with Ek to 2C) makes more sense for the second half.

 

[KaprizovSaveUs]

I like Ek a lot but am I the only one that thinks he’s being extremely overhyped from an defensive standpoint? He’s a middle six center that plays hard

 

[Wabit]

Yeah because Rossi is miles ahead of where Ek was at 23 offensively lol, that's why he gets the deployment he got

I would hate to be the person who thinks it makes more sense to compare a 23 year old 2nd year player to a 27 year old 7th year player

Well when the argument is that JEE has no o-zone upside, does age matter or do the actual stats matter?

When lineups are being made for next year and Rossi is the 2C and JEE is the 3C, does age or actual ability matter? JEE is being called the "matchup center" only because Rossi can't be trusted in the d-zone.

The coach hates Rossi and the GM tanked his value. Yet they played him with the best wings 2/3 of the season.

JEE is currently the better center than Rossi at all aspects of the game. What he was at 23 means nothing to me as far as next season is concerned.

Rossi's 5v5 p/60 is the same 1.7 from his 40p season to his 60p season. For reference JEE's no o-zone skill self was 2.1 p/60 at age 23 (COVID 69 game season) and on full season pace for a 10g, 25a 35p. Rossi this year 5v5 was 14g, 21a, 35p. JEE did this with Kunin (31p), Greenway (28p), Foligno (25p) as his linemates. Rossi did this with Boldy (73p), Kap (56p), and Zucc (54p) as his linemates.

Or if you put 2.1 p/60 into Rossi's 1222.3 5v5 mins played JEE would have had 42.8p

 

[DigitalBoldy]

Can we contrast then?

Ek is a defensive leaning center who didn't play with top line players at 23 because we had someone better at the time, and then played with top line players at 27 because we had no one better at the time

Rossi is an offensive leaning center who played with top line players because he was the someone better this time

But fine, if we can't compare 23 year old season to 23 year old season because it doesn't favor Ek, let's just say it like this:

Rossi at 23 and Ek at 27 scored the same
Ek at 27 scored way more and is a way better player than Ek at 23
So Rossi at 27 will probably also score more and be a better player than Rossi at 23
So Rossi at 27 will score way more than Ek at 27

Ek is a defensive leaning center who never got to play with top end offensive players because we had two established 30+ year old centers. There is zero evidence to suggest that he didn't have the same offensive upside that Rossi has. He was ppg in the AHL. Over a ppg in his last world juniors. Played on the Sweden WC team. Played well offensively in a men's league in Sweden. Much tougher leagues than Canadian major junior.

Rossi is an offensive leaning center who played with top line players because the Wild had no one else with Ek practically injured the entire season (playing hurt the first half, out the second half).

You assume Rossi will just continue a nice arrow upward progression. If he doesn't, and there's a legitimate argument that his minutes will be reduced if he stays at center with a healthy Ek/Yurov joining the team/potentially adding another 2 way center, what happens to your argument then? He might progress as a player and not get enough minutes to outproduce this past season. That's the reality of trying to make this team into a legit contender.

Rossi has played more 5v5 minutes per game than Ek in BOTH of the last two season. A reason for that could be how big of a role Ek plays in non-5v5 situations. This big role also might be why he is never healthy during the season. He is expected to play in EVERY situation and there is no legitimate second player that can take up this role when he is injured and could rest to get healthy. We need to get someone who can fill his role if Ek gets injured. Hell, we needed someone to fill Rossi's role in March when he was injured. We didn't have anyone.

 

[AKL]

Well when the argument is that JEE has no o-zone upside, does age matter or do the actual stats matter?

I'm not sure this was the argument?

JEE is currently the better center than Rossi at all aspects of the game.

Well no that's not true.

Rossi's 5v5 p/60 is the same 1.7 from his 40p season to his 60p season. For reference JEE's no o-zone skill self was 2.1 p/60 at age 23 (COVID 69 game season) and on full season pace for a 10g, 25a 35p. Rossi this year 5v5 was 14g, 21a, 35p. JEE did this with Kunin (31p), Greenway (28p), Foligno (25p) as his linemates. Rossi did this with Boldy (73p), Kap (56p), and Zucc (54p) as his linemates.

Or if you put 2.1 p/60 into Rossi's 1222.3 5v5 mins played JEE would have had 42.8p

Obligatory "Sean Monahan > Kucherov, Draisaitl, McDavid, Crosby, Eichel, Matthews and MacKinnon in P/60 this year".

 

[AKL]

I like Ek a lot but am I the only one that thinks he’s being extremely overhyped from an defensive standpoint? He’s a middle six center that plays hard

No you're not, @Dr Jan Itor and I have talked about it before. But it's a losing fight around here. It's already an uphill battle to say he isn't that great of an offensive center.

Remember the days when we used to make fun of Oilers fans when they thought whoever their top defenseman was was pretty good, because they didn't know what actual good defensemen looked like?

For the record, Ek is much better defensively than offensively, and that's what I mean when I say he's a defensive leaning center. But he's not winning any Selkes going forward.

 

[DigitalBoldy]

No you're not, @Dr Jan Itor and I have talked about it before. But it's a losing fight around here. It's already an uphill battle to say he isn't that great of an offensive center.

Remember the days when we used to make fun of Oilers fans when they thought whoever their top defenseman was was pretty good, because they didn't know what actual good defensemen looked like?

These comments are hilarious given Edmonton and their two offensive superstar centers just got absolutely diffed by a team full of 2 way players. Not a solid argument for the "Rossi needs to stay at center" camp.

 

[Wabit]

Last year, Eriksson Ek's most common 5v5 linemate was Boldy (from when they had the Boldy/Ek/Johansson line together). Kaprizov was 2nd (from when they put the "big 3" together).

After the Vancouver game last year where that line went nuclear (Ek and Kaprizov had matching 3+3's in a 10-7 win), here were the stat lines:

Kaprizov: 23 + 16 = 39 in 27 (12 + 13 = 25 ES)
Boldy: 9 + 16 = 25 in 27 (6 + 15 = 21 ES)
Eriksson Ek: 2 + 11 = 13 in 22 (2 + 7 = 9 ES)

One can claim his defense allowed those two to flourish. One can also claim that he maybe hindered them offensively, even with their nice production. This year's playoffs seemed to be a continuation of that, whichever side one wants to take.

I don't consider Boldy/Kap for either Rossi or JEE from last year. It's too small of a sample size to make a decent comparison with Rossi having less than 70 mins with the 2 of them and the one blowup game for JEE.

Boldy (without Kap) is the one I look at for comparison.

JEE/Boldy: 270 mins, 2.44 GF/60, 1.33 GA/60, 34% o-zone start
Rossi/Boldy: 489 mins, 2.82 GF/60, 2.21 GA/60, 48% o-zone start

JEE/Boldy was really good a couple years ago too. 3.35 GF/60, 1GA/60. It's when Boldy finally found his game that season after a bunch of meh. I don't remember the lines.

 

[Wabit]

I'm not sure this was the argument?



Well no that's not true.

JEE having no o-zone skill outside of garden implment scoring was the argument.

What part of being center is Rossi currently better than JEE? JEE has more goals and points in a season, and a better d-zone game, JEE is better at FOs, he's faster, a better skater overall, and more physical. JEE is PK1 and PP1.

I guess Rossi has a better sh%, and maybe 3v3 he's a better option?

 

[AKL]

JEE having no o-zone skill outside of garden implment scoring was the argument.

You better talk to the guy who made it then, not to me.

 

[Wabit]

You better talk to the guy who made it then, not to me.

I was talking to him. It was actually a few post conversation.

Then the peanut galley chirped in with the Rossi is only 23 and done developing line.

 

[57special]

JEE having no o-zone skill outside of garden implment scoring was the argument.

What part of being center is Rossi currently better than JEE? JEE has more goals and points in a season, and a better d-zone game, JEE is better at FOs, he's faster, a better skater overall, and more physical. JEE is PK1 and PP1.

I guess Rossi has a better sh%, and maybe 3v3 he's a better option?

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. Compare 23yo JEE(when everyone was moaning about how we should've taken Boeser instead of him) to 23yo Rossi.

 

[AKL]

Then the peanut galley chirped in with the Rossi is only 23 and done developing line.

Is this supposed to be me?

 

[AKL]

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. Compare 23yo JEE(when everyone was moaning about how we should've taken Boeser instead of him) to 23yo Rossi.

Apparently (I've been told) this doesn't make sense to do because Rossi is better at 23 than Ek was

 

[57special]

I don't see what's wrong with playing JEE, Rossi, and Yurov at C. If Yurov shows undeniable top 6C talent then we have what's called a "good problem" next year.

 

[Wabit]

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. Compare 23yo JEE(when everyone was moaning about how we should've taken Boeser instead of him) to 23yo Rossi.

Again, for that post I was comparing the players they currently are. JEE is currently better at all center things than Rossi currently is. Yet JEE is somehow the 3C "matchup center" in a lot of lineups for next season.

Who the heck cares what each player was at 8 years old when talking about where they should play next season?

So what you're saying is everyone should be complaining about not taking Lundell over Rossi to even things out with JEE/Boeser?

 

[ctmagic]

I don't see what's wrong with playing JEE, Rossi, and Yurov at C. If Yurov shows undeniable top 6C talent then we have what's called a "good problem" next year.

Me neither. Yurov is the center help hopefully. Bridge Rossi and bring in a RW for added scoring not named Brock. Hopefully Buium helps with some offense from the blue line. I still think we are relying on too many rookies if we think we are making out of the 1st round. Ohgren + for an established winger. Tuch would do wonders if available. Retained Zib, he supposedly played great at wing and could be Yurov insurance at C….