Player Discussion Marco Rossi

6'0" and I'm pretty certain we're not having this conversation.
It's an interesting what if, but the reality is that if he was 6'0" some of the physical limitations on the ice would go away. Or, at least, you could squint and tell yourself they could go away. Right now with Rossi, it's just hard to find a comparable for his playstyle / size combination that get's you super excited long term.
 
I don't have a defined preference for what to do with him without knowing what a bridge deal and long term deal would look like, who the Wild could realistically sign in free agency, and what Marco could return in a trade. But, to play devils advocate, I think their perspective on it is that he's more of a complementary player on the top two lines when he's on there. He does a really good job of not blowing up plays, but he doesn't make things happen himself very often. His skating and size combination is a limitation at this level. In junior he could have the puck on his stick all the time. In the NHL he pretty much gets the puck and gets it off his stick as quick as possible and then moves to the net. He's a valuable player no doubt, but I look at him, and I think management looks at him this way, as more of a complementary player who can play with good players rather than a true line driver. When Matt Boldy get's the puck on his stick, it feels a lot different. Marco Rossi as a player is a great fit for this team long term because of all the reasons I just described. He can play with Kapizov and/or Boldy and not slow them down, but he want's to be paid as a line driver. When we talk about him as a 60 point 23yo center, we all know what the compareables for that look like. It's an expensive contract. They don't want to pay that for a guy that to this point has been a complementary player. And, to be quite honest, I agree. I don't lose sleep at night thinking he's going to become some point per game center somewhere else. I just think there's options to get the value Rossi bring on a much cheaper contract, and, if you think Guerin is into that type of thing, in a bigger body. I understand that people may disagree with that and it's fine and I completely respect that. If there was the option to bridge him, I would be willing to do it, but it makes no sense for Rossi's camp to do that. They will want to capitalize on the 23yo 60 point center high.

Not sure what exactly he's asking for, but when you look at contracts for actual line drivers, they're a lot higher than 7x7. Boldy's contract is a steal, not a good comp.

One thing I just thought of, Zuccarello got like 5yrs, 6M however many years ago right? He was and always has been the ultimate complementary player. What is that contract adjusted for today's cap?

And honestly, even if he is just a really good complementary center that can keep up with Kaprizov and Boldy, that's better than anything we have, anything we'll get in a trade for him, or likely anything we'll sign in free agency. Brock Nelson isn't more than a complementary player. Neither is Boeser.
 
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Look, ultimately I'm fine with trading him if the trade improves the team, but it feels like they're trading him just because they don't like the player. It's not like Eichel is available and they're trading Rossi+ for him. They've decided to trade him regardless of what they'll get, and they don't even have a specific player in mind.

And I don't see the point in doing that.
 
Look, ultimately I'm fine with trading him if the trade improves the team, but it feels like they're trading him just because they don't like the player. It's not like Eichel is available and they're trading Rossi+ for him. They've decided to trade him regardless of what they'll get, and they don't even have a specific player in mind.

And I don't see the point in doing that.

"We want guys who want to be here -- and we don't care how good they are at hockey" William Guerin, maybe
 
"We want guys who want to be here -- and we don't care how good they are at hockey" William Guerin, maybe

I think Rossi, up until the playoffs anyway, had made it clear that he wanted to be here and will put in the work required. Last summer proved that if nothing else. But, who knows.

I'm just a simple man trying to make sense of a situation that doesn't make much sense.
 
Not sure what exactly he's asking for, but when you look at contracts for actual line drivers, they're a lot higher than 7x7. Boldy's contract is a steal, not a good comp.

One thing I just thought of, Zuccarello got like 5yrs, 6M however many years ago right? He was and always has been the ultimate complementary player. What is that contract adjusted for today's cap?

And honestly, even if he is just a really good complementary center that can keep up with Kaprizov and Boldy, that's better than anything we have, anything we'll get in a trade for him, or likely anything we'll sign in free agency. Brock Nelson isn't more than a complementary player. Neither is Boeser.
He does seem like a natural Zuccarello replacement long term, and that market adjustment would be about 7M. I will say though, the player Zuccarello was coming into Minnesota as a UFA is a better player than Marco Rossi is right now, and by quite a bit.
 
One thing I just thought of, Zuccarello got like 5yrs, 6M however many years ago right? He was and always has been the ultimate complementary player. What is that contract adjusted for today's cap?
Equivalent contract would be 5 x $7M.

Contract received after a 16 + 35 = 61 season (regular season and playoffs). Roughly 22 + 47 = 69 per 82 games.
 
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See and I'm not sure that committing to a 35-45 point center as your 2C long term is actually better than using Rossi in that role.

Good to know that Lundell (same age as Rossi) is done developing... :sarcasm:

Last year 15g/24a non-ppp for Lundell, 17g/27a non-ppp for Rossi. Lundell and Rossi have similar ESP/60, and Lundell has a higher 5v5P/60 production. Rossi is a better choice for the PP, Lundell is the better choice for PK.

IMO, ideally it would be JEE as 2C and Lundell as 3C; compared to JEE as a 2C and Rossi as a top-6 winger. None of the players are what I would consider (upside) a 1C. JEE is the closest as a ROR/Bergeron type of 1C.

It's really a meaningless multiverse exercise.

I don't think Nelson would be more than a 1 or 2 year bandaide. A more expensive, less good Staal type of signing.
 
I think it's pretty simple even if we don't agree: they just don't like the player all to much.
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Good to know that Lundell (same age as Rossi) is done developing... :sarcasm:

I don't necessarily think he is, but he hasn't really progressed in 4 seasons. Rossi has progressed in basically 3/3 seasons. And I call Lundell a 35-45 point center because I call Rossi a 60 point center. It's what they've both done in the league.
 
Funny, the 5 seasons preceding Zuccarello signing with us, his 82 game pace average was 20 goals, 41 assists, 61 points.

Lower scoring era, I guess.
We can look at stats alone here but I think we can agree they don't tell a complete story here. I'd be willing to wager that 30yo Mats Zuccarello as rental returned more from Dallas than whatever Guerin is going to get in this Marco Rossi trade. Could certainly be incompetence, but it could also mean that maybe the league doesn't view Marco as a no doubt top 6 center like fans seem to.
 
Yeah, and I just can't see a good reason not to like him as a developing young player, nor a good reason to give up on him this quickly. I think a good GM and a good coach would try to make it work with a 23yo 60pt center.
Guerin appears to be a guy who doesn't like criticism, doesn't like to be questioned, and when he doesn't like something or someone, he quickly moves them out.
 
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Equivalent contract would be 5 x $7M.

Contract received after a 16 + 35 = 61 season (regular season and playoffs). Roughly 22 + 47 = 69 per 82 games.
Funny, the 5 seasons preceding Zuccarello signing with us, his 82 game pace average was 20 goals, 41 assists, 61 points.

Lower scoring era, I guess.


Cheers thanks. Yeah it's a more apt comparison than I thought. Or, I suppose it could be in a few years if Rossi plateaus at ~60 points and ends up a winger. But then with the cap the way it's going, you might be looking at 5x8M or even higher.
 
We can look at stats alone here but I think we can agree they don't tell a complete story here. I'd be willing to wager that 30yo Mats Zuccarello as rental returned more from Dallas than whatever Guerin is going to get in this Marco Rossi trade. Could certainly be incompetence, but it could also mean that maybe the league doesn't view Marco as a no doubt top 6 center like fans seem to.

Even as a winger, if we can agree that he'd be a successful winger, his value is what Zuccarello's was, at minimum, given Zuccarello was 29? year old rental, and Rossi is a 24 year old RFA. Size can't be a criticism here, because we have a bunch of successful 5'9ish wingers to compare to (and Zuccarello is even shorter).
 
Funny, the 5 seasons preceding Zuccarello signing with us, his 82 game pace average was 20 goals, 41 assists, 61 points.

Lower scoring era, I guess.

Zucc lead the NYR in points in 13-14, 15-16, 16-17, 17-18 seasons (4 of his 5 full seasons there). IIRC NYR had deep teams, but no superstars during those years.
 
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Even as a winger, if we can agree that he'd be a successful winger, his value is what Zuccarello's was, at minimum, given Zuccarello was 29? year old rental, and Rossi is a 24 year old RFA. Size can't be a criticism here, because we have a bunch of successful 5'9ish wingers to compare to (and Zuccarello is even shorter).
I do agree that he is worth at least a 1st 2nd and 3rd, yeah. I think Guerin's done a good job of lowering the player's value though.
 
I do agree that he is worth at least a 1st 2nd and 3rd, yeah. I think Guerin's done a good job of lowering the player's value though.
I guess this is what I'm worried about, as well as further lowering his value by not trying to create some type of bidding war, and just taking the first offer he thinks is fair.

He's said several times in his tenure here that he doesn't try to win trades, which is really not a quality I want my GM to have.
 
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I guess this is what I'm worried about, as well as further lowering his value by not trying to create some type of bidding war, and just taking the first offer he thinks is fair.

He's said several times in his tenure here that he doesn't try to win trades, which is really not a quality I want my GM to have.
I don't think he's done a good job of managing the situation. One of my bigger criticisms of him is that he seems like he can be too emotional at times. Russo alone has probably cost the team close to a first round pick in value with all of his reporting on the situation lol. I will say though that there are more layers to the trade for me than just the return. Obviously, you want him to maximize the value of the deal, but let's say the best he can get for him is Hage + 2nd, but they can use the cap space to go out and do something good. I don't know what that would be, but for conversation sake just assume they did well with the open cap space. I think you force more value into the organization even if I don't like the return in a nutshell. If Hage can be a top nine player for two or three years on a rookie deal too, that's even more value in my book. The hard part is knowing what really was the best offer.
 
Rossi is almost exactly what they haven’t had in a long time. An in house developed, high picked forward that became a top 6 player.

And they cannot move on from him fast enough. I don’t understand it.

ETA: Boldy…..can’t forget how good he has become so narrow the complaint to center and not forward. I really don’t understand.
 
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I do agree that he is worth at least a 1st 2nd and 3rd, yeah. I think Guerin's done a good job of lowering the player's value though.

Depends on the pick number of the 1st.

Ignoring Russo crying, what has MN done to lower Rossi's value?

Rossi spent most of the season with one of the team's top-2 wings (~800 mins with, ~300 mins w/o) got plenty of PP time (3rd on the team total PP ToI), and averaged 18 mins ToI a night. They put him on a line in the Playoffs that worked and he went .5ppg in his first Playoffs.
 
Depends on the pick number of the 1st.

Ignoring Russo crying, what has MN done to lower Rossi's value?

Rossi spent most of the season with one of the team's top-2 wings (~800 mins with, ~300 mins w/o) got plenty of PP time (3rd on the team total PP ToI), and averaged 18 mins ToI a night. They put him on a line in the Playoffs that worked and he went .5ppg in his first Playoffs.
It's just the fact that it's been telegraphed nationally for the better part of 2 years they don't like this player, and in crunch time they showed the whole world they don't trust the player to play in big moments.
 
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6'0" and I'm pretty certain we're not having this conversation.
If Rossi was a fast skater, I'm pretty certain we are not having this conversation.

If Rossi was an elite playmaker, I'm pretty certain we are not having this conversation.

If Rossi was a 55% faceoff guy, I'm pretty certain we are not having this conversation.

Rossi is Zach Parise 2.0 with less of a motor. Don't trade him. Play him at wing. Profit.
 
If Rossi was a fast skater, I'm pretty certain we are not having this conversation.

If Rossi was an elite playmaker, I'm pretty certain we are not having this conversation.

If Rossi was a 55% faceoff guy, I'm pretty certain we are not having this conversation.

Rossi is Zach Parise 2.0 with less of a motor. Don't trade him. Play him at wing. Profit.
Honestly, unless he was all of those things, I'm fairly certain that we are. Maybe depending on how "elite" of a playmaker.
 
I will say though that there are more layers to the trade for me than just the return. Obviously, you want him to maximize the value of the deal, but let's say the best he can get for him is Hage + 2nd, but they can use the cap space to go out and do something good. I don't know what that would be, but for conversation sake just assume they did well with the open cap space.

I get this part too, and I'm amenable to it, but the writing is on the wall to give that money to Nelson, and I don't think that's a good use of the cap space.

I'd be less offended if they went out and got Marner or Bennett on a relatively fair deal, along with the good prospect+pick they got for Rossi. Time will tell but I don't anticipate that being what happens.

I think I'd even be good with giving Duchene or Tavares a few years. Not sure what their cap hits would be compared to Nelson, likely higher, but at least they're still good top six centers who can win faceoffs. Either of them would be exactly what we need right now aside from their age.
 

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