Marc Bergevin (Part 12) Deadline Edition

[417]

On one hand...I totally understand Bergevin's stance on on not bottoming out, that keeping a solid veteran core around to bridge the gap with our younger incoming prospects, makes sense.

But whose the non-prospect core of this team?

Price, Weber, Petry, Chiarot, Danault, Tatar, Gallagher, Domi & Drouin?

This group hasn't gotten it done, this core isn't good enough. This is similar to what things were like when he took over the team and the veteran core was Price, Subban, Markov, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Gionta, Cole.

His biggest mistake when he took over the team was putting too much faith in this core and trying to add supporting pieces around it.

Like in 2012-13...this current veteran core simply isn't good enough.

So there really shouldn't be a reluctance to trade guys like Petry or Tatar.

Of course, that doesn't mean you move them all...but really, why the staunch loyalty to a group of players that has never won anything and won't be winning anytime soon?

I get wanting to compete for the playoffs as soon as next year...but man, I hope a broader view is going to be implemented this deadline.

 

[417]

Not a big fan of any of those names. But yes, there are other teams out there. I like their past 2 drafts years, I'd look there first.

I've always liked Gauthier for some reason...a near-term prospect for a a guy like Kovalchuk or Byron would be a solid move IMO.

But I get what you mean.

 

[417]

Yeah... 2017 was a massive wasted opportunity. Radulov, Price, Weber, and Gallagher firing on all cylinders, a solid team behind them, and a clear path going into the playoffs. That's when the Drouin trade would've made sense -- offensive help when we were in the fight and actually needed it. What a shame...

In retrospect, that roster was probably Bergevin's last stand.

That roster wasn't nearly good enough to compete beyond what they did even with a better deadline in 2017.

 

[Lshap]

That roster wasn't nearly good enough to compete beyond what they did even with a better deadline in 2017.

Have to disagree. Add Pacioretty, Petry and Markov to that core, plus a ton of excellent depth guys like Danault, Shaw, Byron, etc. That might've been the best team Bergevin assembled. Their biggest weakness was scoring, especially on the PP, which is why getting someone like Drouin a couple of months later was ironic.

EDIT: Forgot about Galchenyuk, though it's hard to say whether he was a core or depth player.

 

[417]

Have to disagree. Add Pacioretty, Petry and Markov to that core, plus a ton of excellent depth guys like Danault, Shaw, Byron, etc. That might've been the best team Bergevin assembled. Their biggest weakness was scoring, especially on the PP, which is why getting someone like Drouin a couple of months later was ironic.

EDIT: Forgot about Galchenyuk, though it's hard to say whether he was a core or depth player.

Still not a team that I think had what it needed to compete for a Cup.

You have to remember our top 2C's on that team were

Danault & Plekanec (who despite being years removed from being an effective player was playing over 16-17 mins per game).

 

[Andy]

The year to go for it was 2014 when the Habs had a Markov, Petry and prime Subban on the backend with Price playing out of his mind. It was no surprise that the habs were able to win games despite having no offense and bad systems from MB.

Instead, they added Flynn and Mitchell at the deadline because MB claimed that "in order to get talent he would need to trade Scherbak and McCarron."

 

[Habs Halifax]

Have to disagree. Add Pacioretty, Petry and Markov to that core, plus a ton of excellent depth guys like Danault, Shaw, Byron, etc. That might've been the best team Bergevin assembled. Their biggest weakness was scoring, especially on the PP, which is why getting someone like Drouin a couple of months later was ironic.

EDIT: Forgot about Galchenyuk, though it's hard to say whether he was a core or depth player.

Centers were a huge hole and to some degree, it still is. We are not going to be a impact team in the playoffs until we have proven options up the middle.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The year to go for it was 2014 when the Habs had a Markov, Petry and prime Subban on the backend with Price playing out of his mind. It was no surprise that the habs were able to win games despite having no offense and bad systems from MB.

Instead, they added Flynn and Mitchell at the deadline.

Problem with going for it was we didn't have much futures in trades to use to snag talent to address our holes.

 

[Techcoockie]

On one hand...I totally understand Bergevin's stance on on not bottoming out, that keeping a solid veteran core around to bridge the gap with our younger incoming prospects, makes sense.

But whose the non-prospect core of this team?

Price, Weber, Petry, Chiarot, Danault, Tatar, Gallagher, Domi & Drouin?

This group hasn't gotten it done, this core isn't good enough. This is similar to what things were like when he took over the team and the veteran core was Price, Subban, Markov, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Gionta, Cole.

His biggest mistake when he took over the team was putting too much faith in this core and trying to add supporting pieces around it.

Like in 2012-13...this current veteran core simply isn't good enough.

So there really shouldn't be a reluctance to trade guys like Petry or Tatar.

Of course, that doesn't mean you move them all...but really, why the staunch loyalty to a group of players that has never won anything and won't be winning anytime soon?

I get wanting to compete for the playoffs as soon as next year...but man, I hope a broader view is going to be implemented this deadline.

fine, you made a mistake and you had faith in core players that didn't produce, FINE BY ME IT HAPPENS, but for f*** sake PLEASE come out, put your pride on the side and f***ing rebuild like you you should.

Imagine a return of Weber to Nashville
Price to COL/CAL/EDM
Petry to Vegas
Tatar to Pitts or Edmonton

we would be ready with our REAL new core.

 

[Andy]

Problem with going for it was we didn't have much futures in trades to use to snag talent to address our holes.

I call bull on this. The habs had McCarron and Scherbak who still had a lot of value in 2014, as did Hudon. They had first round picks. Guys like DLR, Lekhonen, Fucale still had value as well.

These are all excuses.

Look at the trades that happen every deadline, these are more or less the prospects and picks that get moved.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I call bull on this. The habs had McCarron and Scherbak who still had a lot of value in 2014, as did Hudon. They had first round picks. Guys like DLR, Lekhonen, Fucale still had value as well.

These are all excuses.

Look at the trades that happen every deadline, these are more or less the prospects and picks that get moved.

McCarron and Scherbak were never trending to grade A status. Other teams who were also after our targets (centers... Carter, ROR, RyJo, etc) would have trumped our prospect offer. Best pieces we had were Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, and Tinordi and we needed them to also fill other holes. 08-11 draft years had ripple effects man... I keep saying it

McCarron = McShane today
Scharbak = Fonstad or Ylonen types.

 

[Lshap]

Still not a team that I think had what it needed to compete for a Cup.

You have to remember our top 2C's on that team were

Danault & Plekanec (who despite being years removed from being an effective player was playing over 16-17 mins per game).

Centers were a huge hole and to some degree, it still is. We are not going to be a impact team in the playoffs until we have proven options up the middle.

In Montreal, complaining about our centers has replaced complaining about winters as our annual tradition. It's been how many decades since we've had strength up the middle? That said, I'd still pick 2017 and possibly 2014 as our best playoff teams, although I admit they didn't match up against the big boys of the day.

 

[Harry22]

McCarron and Scherbak were never trending to grade A status. Other teams who were also after our targets (centers... Carter, ROR, RyJo, etc) would have trumped our prospect offer. Best pieces we had were Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, and Tinordi and we needed them to also fill other holes. 08-11 draft years had ripple effects man... I keep saying it

McCarron = McShane today
Scharbak = Fonstad or Ylonen types.

Still using that excuse to defend Bergevin I see. He has had the longest tenure as GM since Serge Savard. Will miss the playoffs for a third straight season (second time only in franchise history) and for a fourth time in five seasons (first time in history).

There is no defending him anymore.

 

[417]

fine, you made a mistake and you had faith in core players that didn't produce, FINE BY ME IT HAPPENS, but for **** sake PLEASE come out, put your pride on the side and ****ing rebuild like you you should.

Imagine a return of Weber to Nashville
Price to COL/CAL/EDM
Petry to Vegas
Tatar to Pitts or Edmonton

we would be ready with our REAL new core.

For me it's pointless to speculate on trades for Price or Weber...it's simply not happen for a multitude of reasons.

I don't even waste my time with those speculations.

But the rest...I can't see how the Montreal Canadiens can be in the position they're in and not look at moving Petry & Tatar.

I mean...if they were sitting on the fence of that before, after the latest transactions, how could they still be unsure???

 

[Habs Halifax]

In Montreal, complaining about our centers has replaced complaining about winters as our annual tradition. It's been how many decades since we've had strength up the middle? That said, I'd still pick 2017 and possibly 2014 as our best playoff teams, although I admit they didn't match up against the big boys of the day.

For sure, we did have a decent team in 14 and 17. But yes, we all agree, our biggest hole to fill is the hardest to find. Things look better in terms of future potential today but it's not accomplished yet until Suzuki and KK are putting up 60-80 pts and effective at both ends.

 

[417]

In Montreal, complaining about our centers has replaced complaining about winters as our annual tradition. It's been how many decades since we've had strength up the middle? That said, I'd still pick 2017 and possibly 2014 as our best playoff teams, although I admit they didn't match up against the big boys of the day.

I don't think the Habs, even in their best of years...have had a Cup contending worthy team since they won the Cup in 93.

Not even the Habs team during their Halak Cinderrella run...it was always a long shot.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Still using that excuse to defend Bergevin I see. He has had the longest tenure as GM since Serge Savard. Will miss the playoffs for a third straight season (second time only in franchise history) and for a fourth time in five seasons (first time in history).

There is no defending him anymore.

Not an excuse to defend Bergevin. It's reality of what happened. That goes past the point when Bergevin was hired too. It's deeper than Bergevin bud

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't think the Habs, even in their best of years...have had a Cup contending worthy team since they won the Cup in 93.

Not even the Habs team during their Halak Cinderrella run...it was always a long shot.

100% agree on this. We have not been considered a playoff threat to go deep for many years now. Winning divisions is a good accomplishment yes but massive holes up the middle and no team can win the 7 game wars like that for 3 or 4 series.

 

[417]

For sure, we did have a decent team in 14 and 17. But yes, we all agree, our biggest hole to fill is the hardest to find. Things look better in terms of future potential today but it's not accomplished yet until Suzuki and KK are putting up 60-80 pts and effective at both ends.

Decent...yes

But horribly inadequate when you compare to the teams that made it to the finals in those years.

During the best of times, over the past 25yrs...the Habs have always been the "little engine that could".

 

[mitchmagic]

We've been missing an impact center since Koivu. Everyone knows it. Why we haven't filled that hole and fixed the mistake is beyond me... management says "trades are hard." I don't buy it. If you have that one position that will push you over the edge into becoming a true contender, you go for it. It's also not like those guys weren't available as free agents. We've always had cap room to spare.

Frustrating. Now we're developing a few but it's been like, over a decade.