Marc Bergevin: Even a broken clock is right twice a day Edition

[Rapala]

Yeah, i would love to see a translator beside a Leafs ''french only speaking'' GM during his presser

This is lame and you know it. The business of hockey is conducted in english. Can you name me even one enterprise in North America outside of Quebec where a uni-lingual french speaking manager even gets hired?

 

[teamfirst]

This is lame and you know it. The business of hockey is conducted in english. Can you name me even one enterprise in North America outside of Quebec where a uni-lingual french speaking manager even gets hired?

I know, but just the tought of a uni-lingual francophone running the most important institution of Ontario....... i would like to see how Toronto media would react, that would be hilarious

 

[ECWHSWI]

This is lame and you know it. The business of hockey is conducted in english. Can you name me even one enterprise in North America outside of Quebec where a uni-lingual french speaking manager even gets hired?

the Montreal Canadiens are not outside of Quebec..

besides, there's enough $ flowing in, I don't see Molson changing in that regard...

 

[groovejuice]

the Montreal Canadiens are not outside of Quebec..

besides, there's enough $ flowing in, I don't see Molson changing in that regard...

I beg to differ. There absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Habs are the most popular NHL team worldwide, and who's fans speak dozens of different languages.

Winning is the language of the Habs (or at least it used to be). We all understand that universal language.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I beg to differ. There absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Habs are the most popular NHL team worldwide, and who's fans speak dozens of different languages.

Winning is the language of the Habs (or at least it used to be). We all understand that universal language.

the logo is popular IMO, just like the NYY for example... I mean, I don't think many "fans" wearing the CH watch hockey in Malaysia or Shangai. We're beiing fooled cause we see people wearing the logo around the world.

 

[groovejuice]

the logo is popular IMO, just like the NYY for example... I mean, I don't think many "fans" wearing the CH watch hockey in Malaysia or Shangai. We're beiing fooled cause we see people wearing the logo around the world.

It's not about wearing the logo in public. In countries with a high population of hockey fans I think the Habs are immensely popular.

Undoubtedly they're still the most popular NHL team in Russia and the former USSR states. It's the biggest hockey nation in the world. Likely the nations in the Scandinavian peninsula as well...

The numbers in the above have likely dropped somewhat since they have exported so many players to NA, and will be rooting for their favourite national players on whichever teams they happen to be playing on. Still, historically the Habs were the prototypical NHL team and I believe their history keeps them there.

 

[Rapala]

the Montreal Canadiens are not outside of Quebec..

besides, there's enough $ flowing in, I don't see Molson changing in that regard...

Yes Sir that is why the only thing I posted in that Habs valuation thread was shit.

 

[Kriss E]

There should not be a language requirement for gm.

There should be a basic syntax requirement though.

 

[26Mats]

His 4 big moves aren't looking so bad now:

Weber for Subban

Shaw + 2 early 2nds for Eller and 2 late 2nds

Drouin for Sergachev

Domi for Galchenyuk

 

[ECWHSWI]

It's not about wearing the logo in public. In countries with a high population of hockey fans I think the Habs are immensely popular.

Undoubtedly they're still the most popular NHL team in Russia and the former USSR states. It's the biggest hockey nation in the world. Likely the nations in the Scandinavian peninsula as well...

The numbers in the above have likely dropped somewhat since they have exported so many players to NA, and will be rooting for their favourite national players on whichever teams they happen to be playing on. Still, historically the Habs were the prototypical NHL team and I believe their history keeps them there.

well that's the thing... there isnt that many countries were hockey fans are in large numbers, US and CND where there's NHL teams, other countries producing NHL players, that's about it... and that's not much, so when we say "most popular in the world" it's really most popular in 2 NA countries + 4 or 5 others countries. A very small portion of "the whole world".

and I don't think it matters much anyway, Molson isnt making much $ from Scandinavian tickets - merch sales.

 

[ECWHSWI]

His 4 big moves aren't looking so bad now:

Weber for Subban

Shaw + 2 early 2nds for Eller and 2 late 2nds

Drouin for Sergachev

Domi for Galchenyuk

key word : now

let's wait a fe more games, after Shaw takes one of his stupid penalties that allows the opponent to tie the game, let's wait till the end of the season and see if Weber can help the Habs win a single round of PO...

(for example)

 

[ECWHSWI]

How many playoff rounds has Weber helped the Habs or the Preds win? One at best. One at most.

If that's upper limit of your expectations then of course you'd support the current direction of the organisation and the overhyped players within it.

Other teams enjoy 100 point players, we're meant to praise a 65 point season from an inconsistent player and a first round playoff loss.

pretty much... every day I see posters mocking the Oilers (for example), Oilers having McDavid on their team, Oilers with 1 more win than the Habs (both 29 games)...

 

[Lshap]

How many playoff rounds has Weber helped the Habs or the Preds win? One at best. One at most.

If that's upper limit of your expectations then of course you'd support the current direction of the organisation and the overhyped players within it.

Other teams enjoy 100 point players, we're meant to praise a 65 point season from an inconsistent player and a first round playoff loss.

It's not fair to link individual players to playoff rounds. Does Shaw get bonus points for helping the Hawks win Cups (and yes, he most definitely helped)? Is Niemi more valuable than Price because he was the Cup winning goalie with Chicago?

Weber can only be judged based on his performance. So far, he's been very good.

 

[ECWHSWI]

It's not fair to link individual players to playoff rounds. Does Shaw get bonus points for helping the Hawks win Cups (and yes, he most definitely helped)? Is Niemi more valuable than Price because he was the Cup winning goalie with Chicago?

Weber can only be judged based on his performance. So far, he's been very good.

normally I'd agree with this, but not in Weber's case, pretty much everybody talk about him like he's a god, a legend, too good to be true, flawless, nevre make mistakes, never, etc...

so if that's the case then it's expected that Weber does more than just help. and very good is not enough.

(and yeah, I dont see peeps objecting when one goes in "Web NEVER make mistakes" mode so you guys agree with this)

 

[Bring Bak Damphousse]

His 4 big moves aren't looking so bad now:

Weber for Subban

Shaw + 2 early 2nds for Eller and 2 late 2nds

Drouin for Sergachev

Domi for Galchenyuk

I think at best he’s batting around .500, Subban for Weber was still his biggest mistake and Eller “for” Shaw was a disaster. Drouin for Sergachev has been back and fourth, we’ll have to see what Sergachev actually turns into, and while Domi has been a slam dunk so far I dont think he’s all of a sudden a ppg player, and will probably level off somewhat, but my early outrage on that deal was misplaced.

 

[26Mats]

How many playoff rounds has Weber helped the Habs or the Preds win? One at best. One at most.

If that's upper limit of your expectations then of course you'd support the current direction of the organisation and the overhyped players within it.

Other teams enjoy 100 point players, we're meant to praise a 65 point season from an inconsistent player and a first round playoff loss.

I didn't support nor do I support upper management. I was stating a fact about all the big trades, that at first all seemed disastrous.

For the Subban trade to be close to even, Weber would have to be very effective into a later age than Subban. Giving up 4 of Subbans prime years (28-31) for 31 year old Weber will be hard to get back. I would still undo this trade, as I always would have.

 

[26Mats]

key word : now

let's wait a fe more games, after Shaw takes one of his stupid penalties that allows the opponent to tie the game, let's wait till the end of the season and see if Weber can help the Habs win a single round of PO...

(for example)

The word now is a key word, that's why it was written.

The Subban trade will be very hard to come close to evening out. I still don't like it at all.

1) Subban is a dynamic player that I think does have such an impact on games that he is a big reason Nashville went deep into the playoffs. Weber will really have to be on his game to match that. But Nashville made significant moves and their players matured at the right time to help that cup run as well. Weber can also have a huge impact on our team. But our management made terrible moves around him (trading for Dwight King, Martinsen, and Steve Ott to try to help our playoff run), signing Alzner and saying to Markov and Radulov, sorry we don't have the cap space to give you your worth, etc... Hard to bring a team past the 1st round under those circumstances. But management is at least making the team faster, if not skilled enough. So perhaps Weber will have enough to work with.

2) We lost 4 of Subban's prime years in the trade (28-31). Weber will have to highly effective into a later age than Subban.

 

[26Mats]

The thing is, if you look at the results in a reasonable way - playoffs, winning, "hope", none of those trades have helped the Habs one bit.

The standards are so numbingly low that awful moves and just bad ones are just shrugged off when the tide washes them away. Our offense dried up after they dishes Subban away. We sputtered HARD. That's not a coincidence. Our C depth got worse and worse after Eller was dished out. We lack PMDs and LDs and have an AHL tier défense currently, despite his inconsistent play Sergachev would be a blue chip talent for the Habs TODAY. ETC.

If these trades even out or we win some of them, they will help. The problem is what happens around them. In the past Bergevin ignored speed and skill (Alzner, Dwight King, Martinsen, and Steve Ott being the most egregious examples). Ever since last trade deadline, he's started to pay a lot of attention to speed. But imo, he still ignores talent far too much, and that's why I still want him fired asap. I get that he doesn't want to mortgage the future. But there's no way he should have passed on players like Skinner, Duclair, and Perron. Acquiring Armia, Plekanec, and Peca, I have no problem with individually. It's just that as usual he didn't upgrade the talent level of the team.

 

[26Mats]

I think at best he’s batting around .500, Subban for Weber was still his biggest mistake and Eller “for” Shaw was a disaster. Drouin for Sergachev has been back and fourth, we’ll have to see what Sergachev actually turns into, and while Domi has been a slam dunk so far I dont think he’s all of a sudden a ppg player, and will probably level off somewhat, but my early outrage on that deal was misplaced.

I was never a big Eller fan, on the ice. He's a character guy, but having tunnel vision is a problem for me. Sure if you're first two centers are Backstrom and Kuznetsov, it's fine. I was Shaw's biggest critic. I can't stand that he can't stick handle or receive a pass. Too many plays die on his stick. But if he can keep this up - and that's a huge, low probability, if - the trade will be pretty close to even, only the swapping 2nds makes it a loss.

I really wanted to get Domi because I saw the talent level. I just didn't want to give up Galchenyuk, and still think we didn't have to do so to get him. But I think Domi's the real deal. The game has opened up a lot. your 60 point scorers from years past are now 80 point scorers. So, from that perspective, he may be a point per game player. Regardless he's a fantastic piece to have as part of the young core. But imo Galchenyuk should also still be one of those pieces. Would have loved to have seen a Drouin-Domi-Galchenyuk line.

 

[Rapala]

His 4 big moves aren't looking so bad now:

Weber for Subban

Shaw + 2 early 2nds for Eller and 2 late 2nds

Drouin for Sergachev

Domi for Galchenyuk

The first two trades will never look good no matter how much lipstick we put on them.
Consider what we got for Paccioretty and then understand how we missed out with Subban.
The same thing with Shaw and Eller had we simply drafted the BPA with those picks. They may look good to MB because he wanted to rid himself of players who were openly critical of Therrien but did they move the team forward I don't think so. We'd have far fewer holes on this team if it was handled properly. But I guess if you're satisfied with competing in the bubble they do look OK NOW.

 

[26Mats]

The first two trades will never look good no matter how much lipstick we put on them.
Consider what we got for Paccioretty and then understand how we missed out with Subban.
The same thing with Shaw and Eller had we simply drafted the BPA with those picks. They may look good to MB because he wanted to rid himself of players who were openly critical of Therrien but did they move the team forward I don't think so. We'd have far fewer holes on this team if it was handled properly.

you're right that if Timmins liked one of Debrincat or Samuel Girard the trade is automatically a disaster. But there's no guarantee that is the case. But that is the huge danger when you trade two early 2nds for two later 2nds. The first half of the 2nd round, historically, is much better than the 2nd half.

I would also add in particular that we could have gotten Domi without giving up Galchenyuk, who I think will be a solid offensive player when playing with good offensive linemates.

Probably could have had Hall in the Subban trade... It's the problem with a GM that places intagibles far ahead of high end talent.

But you have to give MB credit for the Pacioretty trade. He held his cards long enough to get a good deal, unlike Waddell in the Skinner trade. Anyone with any sense knew at the time that 4 years younger Skinner had more to offer over the rest of his career than Pacioretty. And look at the difference in what they went for.

 

[Rapala]

you're right that if Timmins liked one of Debrincat or Samuel Girard the trade is automatically a disaster. But there's no guarantee that is the case. But that is the huge danger when you trade two early 2nds for two later 2nds. The first half of the 2nd round, historically, is much better than the 2nd half.

I would also add in particular that we could have gotten Domi without giving up Galchenyuk, who I think will be a solid offensive player when playing with good offensive linemates.

Probably could have had Hall in the Subban trade... It's the problem with a GM that places intagibles far ahead of high end talent.

But you have to give MB credit for the Pacioretty trade. He held his cards long enough to get a good deal, unlike Waddell in the Skinner trade. Anyone with any sense knew at the time that 4 years younger Skinner had more to offer over the rest of his career than Pacioretty. And look at the difference in what they went for.

Should just stick with the last two trades are looking good so far. By including the first two trades in your original post it seems like you are purposefully watering down the truth. This in turn may lead some to believe you are an "Apologist".

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Funny enough, I think the Kotkaniemi pick is going to be the defining move of MBs tenure as GM. If he can become that #1C, we could have 2 great duos up front in Domi/Drouin, and Kotka/Suzuki- and that is isn't even mentioning Tatar/Gallagher who have chemistry. But if Kotka doesn't establish himself as a legit #1C, then that pick could look bad in retrospect.

 

[26Mats]

Should just stick with the last two trades are looking good so far. By including the first two trades in your original post it seems like you are purposefully watering down the truth. This in turn may lead some to believe you are an "Apologist".

Yeah I know how some will interpret it. But notice how in my original post I said the 4 trades "aren't looking so bad" and you quoted me as saying the 4 trades are "looking good." I didn't say nor do I think they are all looking good , and I think the truth is they aren't looking as bad as they were before the first third of this season - definitely a small sample size.

Bergevin has an excellent record in the bargain bin. Coming into this year his record was a disaster for the big moves. Ulitmatly, I am very happy speed is a priority for him. Character is also good, but if he goes for speed and character and continues to take high skill and talent for granted we won't go anywhere. In fact because he finally gets it with regard to speed, it might be enough to continually get to the playoffs but lose in the first or second round.

 

[Rapala]

Yeah I know how some will interpret it. But notice how in my original post I said the 4 trades "aren't looking so bad" and you quoted me as saying the 4 trades are "looking good." I didn't say nor do I think they are all looking good , and I think the truth is they aren't looking as bad as they were before the first third of this season - definitely a small sample size.

Bergevin has an excellent record in the bargain bin. Coming into this year his record was a disaster for the big moves. Ulitmatly, I am very happy speed is a priority for him. Character is also good, but if he goes for speed and character and continues to take high skill and talent for granted we won't go anywhere. In fact because he finally gets it with regard to speed, it might be enough to continually get to the playoffs but lose in the first or second round.

Two of them always looked bad and look even worse when additional information got leaked over time.