BenchBrawl
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Marc Bergevin Appreciation Thread
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Grate n Colorful Oz
The Hutson Hawk
Dude, stop it.
The drafting was shit for years and it started getting better after the front office remix in the summer of 2018, which probably gave more leeway to Timmins and the rest of the drafting department. No more dumbass priority given to size and truculence. The drafting philosophy changed and am pretty certain Bergevin wasn't responsible for the new philosophy.
And on top of that, got lucky as hell, wanting Glass, but getting Suzuki, and Caufield falling on their lap.
Your gatekeeping won't work.
Bergevin's legacy is the worst sequence in Habs history, bar none.
The drafting was shit for years and it started getting better after the front office remix in the summer of 2018, which probably gave more leeway to Timmins and the rest of the drafting department. No more dumbass priority given to size and truculence. The drafting philosophy changed and am pretty certain Bergevin wasn't responsible for the new philosophy.
And on top of that, got lucky as hell, wanting Glass, but getting Suzuki, and Caufield falling on their lap.
Your gatekeeping won't work.
Bergevin's legacy is the worst sequence in Habs history, bar none.
Hoffman, Gallagher’s albatross, Drouin/Sergachev, disrespecting Markov, KK and PD just leaving, if you want loyalty get a dog, it’s not Playstation, leaving us in complete cap hell.
He wasn’t all bad, but good riddance.
He wasn’t all bad, but good riddance.
CHwest
Talent sets the floor, character sets the ceiling.
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I was going to post a retort, but I'll leave you with your delusions.
BenchBrawl
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Please, Ozy, you're better than this. You're old enough to know this isn't true, even for the worst Maestro playa hater. You know very well that the worst sequence in Habs history was the late-90s and early-00s.
As for "gatekeeping", what in the hell is that supposed to mean ? lol
Grate n Colorful Oz
The Hutson Hawk
That wasn't the worst sequence. Bergevin managed to form the worat roster in our history. In 17-18, Bergevin was one point removed from the worst record in the modern era for the Habs, beating Houle's 2000 team (he was fired, Savard inherited the mess and was GM for most of that season) 71 vs 70 points, but did manage to take hold of the record for most regulation losses in Habs history with 41. He then went on to obliterate both records last season. He now has both the worst record (55 points), but also first and second place for reg losses with 41 and 49.
If it wasn't for covid, he would've beaten an 80 years old habs record by missing the playoffs more than 6 years in a row.
BenchBrawl
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Points don't tell the whole story. Nothing compares to the abysmal hopelessness of the late-90s/early-00s. We made the freaking Stanley Cup Final under Bergevin, something that wouldn't happen in the late-90s/early-00s even in our wildest dreams. Stop mathematizing reality away...
How about we list all his failed picks next to these eh? Galchenyuk, McCaron, Scherbak, Juulsen, Trading Sergachev for Drouin, Kotkaniemi, And those are only the first round picks.
Ohh and convenient that you did not mention that while he drafted Harris, said player would not sign in Montreal while he was GM and it is only after he was fired he signed on.
Ohh and convenient that you did not mention that while he drafted Harris, said player would not sign in Montreal while he was GM and it is only after he was fired he signed on.
Grate n Colorful Oz
The Hutson Hawk
The 97-02 period wasn't as bad as you make it seem, it was pretty similar to Bergevin's post 2015 with the covid period as an abstraction.
The stanley cup final was mostly due to circumstance and Price, a player he inherited from Gainey. In a normal year, Habs would've went up against the best of the conference in the first two rounds.
BenchBrawl
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Nonsense, those lineups were hopeless.
Convenient of you to "abstract away" the Maestro's trip to the Stanley Cup final. Fair way to judge a legacy.
I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessments about Bergevin, but you have the right to believe what you want, if I remember well there was a thread about him already, and there was a rule about it, like no dissing him, or something like that.
Fair is fair. The only way to judge is by results. Bergevin gets credit for turning around the ship and drafting/acquiring Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Harris, Xhekaj. Period. Stories about 'luck' or who he 'really meant to pick' are useless – does he get the benefit of 'bad luck' for his bad trades? Do we examine who he wanted to pick instead of the bad draft picks? Obviously not. Results count, not 'good luck/bad luck' crap.
But even if Bergevin began fixing the massive holes, it was his decisions that created the holes in the first place. Worst drafting/development in the league, no ability to build a roster, unbalanced cap structure – the Habs were mired in a hole they're still digging out of.
No denying he had some good moments – and yeah, a SCF appearance is a legit accomplishment – and left us the pieces of a potentially solid core, but he left the previous core in tatters.
But even if Bergevin began fixing the massive holes, it was his decisions that created the holes in the first place. Worst drafting/development in the league, no ability to build a roster, unbalanced cap structure – the Habs were mired in a hole they're still digging out of.
No denying he had some good moments – and yeah, a SCF appearance is a legit accomplishment – and left us the pieces of a potentially solid core, but he left the previous core in tatters.
Bergevin was terrible ....period....case closed.
It was time for Bergevin to move on, but it would be foolish to say he didn't make a number of good moves over his tenure... even in the end.
Honestly, for a rebuilding team that just finished dead last in the league and fired the GM, head scout and head coach, we are in very good shape. Actually, it would be difficult to find another team in this situation that was left with so many good assets (great young players, prospects AND draft picks).
Most rebuilding teams are a tire fire when the new GM comes in.
Honestly, for a rebuilding team that just finished dead last in the league and fired the GM, head scout and head coach, we are in very good shape. Actually, it would be difficult to find another team in this situation that was left with so many good assets (great young players, prospects AND draft picks).
Most rebuilding teams are a tire fire when the new GM comes in.
WeThreeKings
Demidov is a HAB
He was here for 10 years and burned an incredible core that he inherited. Hughes and Gorton will spend a lot of time trying to get a top goalie and a true #1 defenseman. Bergevin had Price and Subban, Markov.. on top of Plekanec, Pacioretty, the 3rd overall pick, Gallagher etc.
In one year we've seen competence. They've acquired more 1st round picks, got Dach, their first draft looks like it will be better than any single draft under Bergevin. They hired a smart coach. Development and analytics teams.
The proper reaction should be anger that we took so long to remove an incompetent vision less dinosaur.
In one year we've seen competence. They've acquired more 1st round picks, got Dach, their first draft looks like it will be better than any single draft under Bergevin. They hired a smart coach. Development and analytics teams.
The proper reaction should be anger that we took so long to remove an incompetent vision less dinosaur.
Grate n Colorful Oz
The Hutson Hawk
Consider that it was before free points in OT/SO:
96-97 77 pts
97-98 87 pts
98-99 75 pts
99-00 83 pts
00-01 70 pts
Total points differential : -18
17-18 71 pts
18-19 95 pts
19-20 82 pts (prorated)
20-21 86 pts (prorated)
21-22 55 pts
Total point differential: -31
It's not abstracted away. It's something completely out of standard. Without covid, there's no canadian division, which gave them a 1/7 chance to make the conference finals, from the very start of the season. All they had to do to make the playoffs was beat out 2 of 6 other teams, instead of beating out 8 of 15 teams. It's easier to beat out 1/3 of the competition, rather than half of it and that's without considering the Canadian division's overall. Once in the playoffs, again, out of format, being a last place team, they should've went versus the top of the conference, but covid changed that. Without Covid, teams aren't as cash strapped and Bergevin doesn't sign Toffoli, at the very least.
I will always give credit to the players for making the most out of a great opportunity, especially Price. All the merit goes to them. Bergevin was gifted a redemption story to what was becoming an ordeal.
Estimated_Prophet
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Easily the best post in this thread.
I will add a caveat to the drafting record as Timmins is being crucified for a period where MB traded alot of high picks and left him with very poor draft positions. The torch brandishing zealots of the board also conveniently leave sout record setting/league leading injury woes that were by far the main contributor to his worst seasons as well as Price just flat out being awful for the final 6 years other than a couple of great playoff performances.
MB clearly didn't have the long term vision and team building concepts that HuGo has displayed thus far but he was probably closer to average and won most of his trades. His biggest problems were negotiating contracts and a lack of foresight in regards to player development and long term roster construction..
At the end of the day MB was somewhat vindicated with his SC final appearance. He was very open about building a team that could win in the playoffs but would have to grind it out to make the playoffs. The truth is if we only dealt with league average injuries and Price performed like he was paid to perform MB would still be the GM and would have a very successful resume as an NHL GM despite some of his obvious short comings.
I absolutely prefer HuGo's approach but the vehement level of hatred for MB is based primarily on emotional hyperbole and tribal instincts that are not grounded in reason.
I am happy that we have moved on from MB but I certainly don't hate on the guy as he did many good things and some of them are core building blocks for the new vision that HuGo have in mind.
Grate n Colorful Oz
The Hutson Hawk
Hey genius, Peanut's worst season and Gauthier's worst season, Habs were also leading the league in man games lost to injury. If injuries is an excuse for Bergevin, it's also an excuse for them, but the fact remains that Bergevin has by far the worst record of the three: 70 vs 78 vs 55.
To add insult to injury, Bergevin had another season to rival theirs by getting 71 points in 17-18.
Price was awful because Bergevin didn't know how build a defense and never prepared for Markov's departure. No goalie will be great when you replace Markov and Emelin with Alzner and Mete.
BenchBrawl
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=
You can post as many statistics as you want. Many people on this board will remember the complete lack of any potential and hope on those late-90s/early-00s teams. Maybe they overachieved a bit, but they had no chance of doing anything of note with these lineups. They seemed headed towards the same fate as the Expos: Mediocrity then death.
In the Maestro era, it was hit or miss, but you still had a strong core, with a franchise-level goalie and a solid #1 defenseman. We lacked that top forward unfortunately, but the odds were stacked against Bergevin to acquire that top forward in due time with the cards he had. Still way more hopeful than the crap late-90s/early-00s era.
You can post as many statistics as you want. Many people on this board will remember the complete lack of any potential and hope on those late-90s/early-00s teams. Maybe they overachieved a bit, but they had no chance of doing anything of note with these lineups. They seemed headed towards the same fate as the Expos: Mediocrity then death.
In the Maestro era, it was hit or miss, but you still had a strong core, with a franchise-level goalie and a solid #1 defenseman. We lacked that top forward unfortunately, but the odds were stacked against Bergevin to acquire that top forward in due time with the cards he had. Still way more hopeful than the crap late-90s/early-00s era.
HAHAHA come on....he was nowhere near average and well below average as a GM. He made poor and sometimes impulsive decisions. Making up excuses with injuries and trying to say Price was awful is just terrible analysis of the period he was GM. DId Price have some better than other seasons, sure it happens to everyone, but he was not awful in any of them, especially with the poor teams Bergevin put in front of him.
Love how you are putting Bergevin's failing as a GM as being Price's fault....come on.
Huh you are making the 90s every sound a hell of a lot like the Bergevin era. Some of Bergevin's team overachieved a bit and got the luck of the COVID draw to make the finals. The Bergevin teams screamed mediocre team.
Estimated_Prophet
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So you are going to completely ignore the record setting man games lost seasons but use the Covid angle to support your bias.....ok?
He was a 3 time runner up to the Jim Gregory award, had a Conference final and Stanley Cup final and was runner up to the President's trophy once and you think there is a comparison to be made with the Houle era....????
There were some great highs and some bad lows but to ignore the highs and focus on the lows despite record setting injury seasons and a star goalie ranked near the bottom for starting goaltenders for six consecutive seasons due to injuries and substance abuse seems a little biased.
I am not defending Bergevin as some kind of savant I am just stating the facts that clearly support categorizing him as no worse than average.
The amount of venom directed at the guy seems to come from the same ideologies that spawn right wing conspiracy theories. I think some of you need to look around the league at other GM's and their resumes before crowning MB as a below average buffoon.
I am personally glad that he is gone but I am also grounding my opinion in facts and reason as a franchise like the Habs should have the very best at the helm and MB clearly was not that and average isn't good enough for this market.
Chili
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The frustration that I saw was an organization being asset poor for many years. When good players became available for trade the Habs were rarely in a position to be in the bidding because of a lack of young talent that would allow them to make a big deal. Seems like a corner may finally have been turned recently and that reflects on past and present management. It's always ongoing though, gotta keep finding good young players, especially looking at all the young talent being amassed in the Atlantic division.
Seb
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