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Maple Leafs logo with red text

Taoiseach

Taoiseach

Go Hull Go!
May 14, 2011
1,537
1
Ottawa-Gatineau, NCR
Circa 1947, the text in the Maple Leafs' logo changed to red for a little while, and I'm wondering if anyone can provide me with more information.

NHL Uniforms, which is usually a great source of NHL jersey information, falls somewhat short on this matter. It lists the change as lasting from 1945-48, however the actual TML website (second paragraph under the picture of the sweater in question) seems to contradict that. The Wikipedia page (ever a credible source...) seems to confirm what the TML website says.

Adding to the confusion, however, is a website called TMLFever says 'In 1947, the words "Toronto Maple Leafs" appeared in red, but the innovation was largely ceremonial and only lasted one semester.' At the same time, that TMLFever website says that '(it was) only for photos.'

Now, this makes sense to me, as red appears blacker than black in black & white photography. It seems reasonable that they would do this to make the lettering stand out better. I have found a picture of Syl Apps wearing the jersey in question, but it's not a game shot, so I still don't know.

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Does anyone know if these were actually worn on the ice? Also, does anyone know what the reason for the change was?
 
For what little it's worth, the Maple Leafs had that jersey as a selectable uniform in the NHL 2k video game series, along with many other ice-worn vintage uniforms.

I also question the logic of having a uniform set made up entirely for the purpose of still photos.
 
mco543 said:
I also question the logic of having a uniform set made up entirely for the purpose of still photos.
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Well, like I said, it's almost certainly to make the text stand out more in black & white photography.

It does seem strange though...

Anyway, I'm making one for my wife right now, and will likely be finished in a week or so. I'd love to know more of the back story, and be able to properly pick a number to put on it. I'm planning to play it safe and pick a player from the 1947-48 season (likely Kennedy), but I'd love to know more.
 
... huh. Im stumped. Tried to find something in cyberspace to explain it, but nothing. I cant believe, what with Smythes notorious parsimony that he'd go to the expense of having them made up strictly for photo's as the one site suggests, not unless it was maybe just a few with the red lettering & the players swapped them for their still shots. Meanwhile nhluniform backs up the timeline, 45-48, so one would just have to think that ya, mustve been the actual jersey for 3 years. The only thing I can think of is that it might have been done as a salute to those who lost their lives fighting, the red signifying blood. Given Conn Smythes' "We are Marshall" propensities, having served in both WWI&II, its the only thing that makes sense. Cant prove it of course.... maybe if you posted the question on the nhluni FB page youd have better luck. Someones gotta know why (?) and like you, Id like that mystery/riddle solved.
 
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Red looks really sharp in there as an accent colour. Kind of wish they had kept up the tradition strictly in the logo...
 
Stephen said:
Red looks really sharp in there as an accent colour. Kind of wish they had kept up the tradition strictly in the logo...
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Kinda "throws me". As a lifelong Leafs fan, any off color off-putting, though oddly, I really like the original 1927 first year version used for half a season, a solid cream colored jersey with the Green Leaf. Also love the 27-30 home & away models.
 
Copyright/Trademark

Leafs history is marked by efforts to get around the mistake they made initially which allowed their logo to drift into the realm of "Public Domain". Looks like another early effort to control logo usage.
 
Canadiens1958 said:
Leafs history is marked by efforts to get around the mistake they made initially which allowed their logo to drift into the realm of "Public Domain". Looks like another early effort to control logo usage.
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Could be that as well, the answer lying in the musty files of a Copyright Office somewhere. They were using the familiar "Leaf" previously to 45, started re-using it again post 48. In this version, there are noticeable differences with its shape, size & lack of background definition in addition to the red lettering. CN, Beaver Foods & a number of others used the Leaf in various incarnations in their logo's. Its a bit bizarre really, that something as important as a teams logo, its crest & identification would be subject to copyright infringements looking back on it all through hindsight, though obviously Toronto wasnt alone in that regard.
 
Killion said:
In this version, there are noticeable differences with its shape, size & lack of background definition in addition to the red lettering.
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Yeah, that's my second issue. I'm trying to find a good picture where I can capture the proper shape.

I think I'm going to do the veins on the leaf with a second layer of white, but I haven't fully decided yet. I'm also not sure if I should put a blue outline around the leaf (not inside of the white, but right around the edge)...

One of the fun yet annoying issues with this particular hobby of mine is making design decisions when a proper picture is in doubt. I'm sort of stumped on this one though. The sweater is easy enough, but the logo, not so much...
 
Taoiseach said:
Yeah, that's my second issue. I'm trying to find a good picture where I can capture the proper shape.I think I'm going to do the veins on the leaf with a second layer of white, but I haven't fully decided yet. I'm also not sure if I should put a blue outline around the leaf (not inside of the white, but right around the edge)... One of the fun yet annoying issues with this particular hobby of mine is making design decisions when a proper picture is in doubt. I'm sort of stumped on this one though. The sweater is easy enough, but the logo, not so much...
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There does appear to be a feint outline of the leafs veins in white on white so ya, I think your safe there, however, I dont detect a blue backing or border on it, could be the photograph though, and the overall shape & spec's of the thing seem different from both the preceding 45 & post 48 Leaf itself. Very odd... if you wanna be absolutely genuine, Id' be contacting someone at MLSE and or the HHOF itself in order to get the straight goods on that one. If your going to take the time & go to the effort of creating a replica, might as well get it bang on no?. I think you'll find the folks at both, particularly the HOF most accommodating.

DJ Man said:
That picture looks to me as if might have been hand-colored after the fact. Maybe a touch-up artist added the red.
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Thats what I thought initially. Photographer couldve used a filter when the picture was taken or in processing but for the fact that more than 2 uniform research sites confirm the red-lettering, seemingly as a 3 year issue (45-48), worn by the Leafs. There must be photos', black & white and color from the era on-line so we can confirm it one way or another (and why of course, whats with the red at all?).... one of those annoying little mysteries in life huh?.

Dang you Taoiseach!.... :laugh:
 
Killion said:
if you wanna be absolutely genuine, Id' be contacting someone at MLSE and or the HHOF itself in order to get the straight goods on that one. If your going to take the time & go to the effort of creating a replica, might as well get it bang on no?. I think you'll find the folks at both, particularly the HOF most accommodating.
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That's a good idea - I'll send them an email.

Edit - Hmm... I don't really want to have to pay for somebody to do research for me, and the HHOF seems to charge by the hour... I'll keep digging...

That picture looks to me as if might have been hand-colored after the fact. Maybe a touch-up artist added the red.
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I'm pretty sure that that picture was colourised after the fact too, but they definitely did have red on there at some point in the mid to late 40s.
 
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Taoiseach said:
That's a good idea - I'll send them an email.

Edit - Hmm... I don't really want to have to pay for somebody to do research for me, and the HHOF seems to charge by the hour... I'll keep digging...
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...huh?. Since when did the HHOF start charging people for answers?. Heck, Id just call em up. Ask for someone in "sweaters", explain what your after, Im sure they'll gladly help you out for free. Prolly have some of those jerseys in storage or whatever & can give you the exact dimensions of the unusually shaped leaf, pms colors, the whole ball of wool. You have a problem, PM me. I have connections. :naughty:

Taoiseach said:
Hey! I found a picture that shows the shape a little more clearly....
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... :laugh: cute picture. Looks to have been taken at the Gardens. Really illustrates how much more complex the Leaf itself is.
 
Killion said:
...huh?. Since when did the HHOF start charging people for answers?. Heck, Id just call em up. Ask for someone in "sweaters", explain what your after, Im sure they'll gladly help you out for free. Prolly have some of those jerseys in storage or whatever & can give you the exact dimensions of the unusually shaped leaf, pms colors, the whole ball of wool. You have a problem, PM me. I have connections. :naughty:
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I just emailed a Toronto based hockey historian, so I'll see if he emails me back. If not, I'll give the HHOF a call on Monday.

I found this hat on the internet -

item-1302731220-mapleleafs-nvy-full.jpg
 
Taoiseach said:
For the record, this is what I'm thinking of using to make the crest - http://www.sportslogos.net/logo.php?id=6441
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Well, now I know.

I emailed Paul Patskou, and he immediately sent me scans of an article on Toronto's jersey history out of the SIHR's journal.

Rather than typing it all back out, here's the relevant paragraph -

SIHRArticleParagraph.png


To me, anyway, this seems to confirm the logo that I found on SportsLogos (above).

I think I'm going to make a white leaf and a slightly larger blue leaf. My wife has volunteered to embroider the blue veining and red letters on, and then I'll glue the white leaf to the blue leaf, and sew that down to the sweater.
 
Taoiseach said:
Well, now I know....I think I'm going to make a white leaf and a slightly larger blue leaf. My wife has volunteered to embroider the blue veining and red letters on, and then I'll glue the white leaf to the blue leaf, and sew that down to the sweater.
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Interesting. So it was Smythe, adding the red in a gesture of patriotism; the sweaters used for photo's exclusively. Thanks for digging that up. Mystery solved.

Interesting site with the proto-type jersey designs. Some really nice ones in there, most notably that Pittsburgh Penguins number in the black & gold. Thats seriously sharp.

Most crests are of course made from computer programmed embroidery machines, pretty cool you do yours by hand in layers, old school. Gives it that truly "authentic" stamp when your finished. What other jerseys have you made over the years?.
 
Killion said:
Interesting site with the proto-type jersey designs. Some really nice ones in there, most notably that Pittsburgh Penguins number in the black & gold. Thats seriously sharp.
Click to expand...

The jersey concepts site? If you like that, check out Icethetics.

Killion said:
Most crests are of course made from computer programmed embroidery machines, pretty cool you do yours by hand in layers, old school. Gives it that truly "authentic" stamp when your finished. What other jerseys have you made over the years?.
Click to expand...

Well, I've been meaning to start doing this for years, but I only started knitting about a year and a half ago.

So far I've made a ca.1910 Montreal Shamrocks sweater (I again had to make a design decision, but I'll get to that...), a ca.1910 Cobalt Silver Kings sweater, and a ca.1926 Eddie Shore Bruins sweater. I'm about a quarter of the way through the second sleeve on my wife's Leafs sweater, and I still have to make the crests, collar, and sew it all together. My next project is going to be a ca.1973 Hull Festivals sweater. I plan to have it ready in time for the Olympiques home opener next season (40th anniversary season!).

I'll post some pictures tomorrow, but the crest on the Bruins sweater turned out really well.
 
^^^Awesome, and thanks for the link. Look forward to seeing your sweaters!..
 
I don't know why the first picture of the Shamrocks sweater isn't showing up, but I'll try again -

DSCF2224.jpg



Eddie Shore Boston Bruins sweater -

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I wasn't 100% sure on how large the white space should have been, nor was I sure about how large the 2 should have been. I saw about eight different stripe width combinations while researching it, and I eventually just went with what I liked the most. The height of the 2 is based on an advertisement for hockey sweaters out of a 1930s Eaton's catalogue, that said that the numbers that could be added are 7 or 8" tall (I can't remember exactly), but the number is to spec based on that ad.
 
Wow. Good job there, and ya, I can see how you'd be proud of how that Bruins logo turned out. Spot on. I also like the Cobalt & Shamrocks sweaters, particularly the latter, the Achilles' Winged Foot IMO one of the best logo's of all time, used extensively at the end of the 19th Century by a number of teams. It looks like you use standard weight wool?. I guess in the earliest days when games were played outdoors primarily that wouldve been the norm, so it doesnt get much more "authentic" then that. Some of the really early sweaters, like the Kenora Thistles etc had some really beautiful designs/logo's.

Wearable art. :)
 
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