Managerial Thread - 24/25 Season - Lolves/Lolthampton

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Maguire hasn't been first choice for a while...I feel like you know this but it's not convenient for your point.

Meh he started every major tournament except the last insert his replacement.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Starting CBs of major tournament winners since 2010:

Spain 24: Le Normand and Laporte
Argentina 22: Romero and Otamendi
Italy 21: Chiellini and Bonucci
France 18: Umtiti and Varane
Portugal 16: Pepe and Jose Fonte
Germany 14: Boateng and Hummels
Spain 12: Pique and Ramos
Spain 10: Pique and Puyol

4/8 have two world class CBs (Italy, Germany, and the two Spains). 1/8 has a world class CB paired with a very good CB (France). 2/8 have a very good CB paired with a mediocre CB (Argentina, Portugal). 1/8 have a pair of mediocre CBs (Spain).

A world class CB duo is obviously a great thing to have that enhances your chances of winning a tournament. But tournaments have been won without them! Stones is comfortably on the level of multiple guys here who had been the 'better' CB in pairings, and England have CB prospects fully capable of being better than the f***ing Otamendis of the world.

And it all comes back to the core point, which is that these games are not played on paper. For all that the panic has consistently been "England have bad CBs", their issue was always in the parts of the pitch where they're fantastic on paper, because their offensive coaching was f***ing dreadful.

And it's always so funny when it circles back to Maguire. For all that Maguire is an easy meme, he's been consistently fantastic for England. There's a reason why he made the Team of the Tournament for Euro 2020 when he only played in the knockout stages. People need to actually watch games instead of forming opinions from Internet shitposts.

 

[Ceremony]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1846309469459767336

I f***ing love it when England eats itself.

 

[bluesfan94]

Speculation is that City will target Amorim if Pep does decide not to renew. Hugo Viana taking over for Txiki Begiristain and mentoring with him beforehand has fed this.

Can’t imagine Amorim being interested in non league football but I guess you never know.

 

[AlanHUK]

Love this hiring

f*** the mail, f*** the telegraph, in fact f*** our entire national press, they've never backed the national teams in any sport, until we win then they act like they've been behind them the whole way instead of trying to undermine then

 

[bluesfan94]

Starting CBs of major tournament winners since 2010:

Spain 24: Le Normand and Laporte
Argentina 22: Romero and Otamendi
Italy 21: Chiellini and Bonucci
France 18: Umtiti and Varane
Portugal 16: Pepe and Jose Fonte
Germany 14: Boateng and Hummels
Spain 12: Pique and Ramos
Spain 10: Pique and Puyol

4/8 have two world class CBs (Italy, Germany, and the two Spains). 1/8 has a world class CB paired with a very good CB (France). 2/8 have a very good CB paired with a mediocre CB (Argentina, Portugal). 1/8 have a pair of mediocre CBs (Spain).

A world class CB duo is obviously a great thing to have that enhances your chances of winning a tournament. But tournaments have been won without them! Stones is comfortably on the level of multiple guys here who had been the 'better' CB in pairings, and England have CB prospects fully capable of being better than the f***ing Otamendis of the world.

And it all comes back to the core point, which is that these games are not played on paper. For all that the panic has consistently been "England have bad CBs", their issue was always in the parts of the pitch where they're fantastic on paper, because their offensive coaching was f***ing dreadful.

And it's always so funny when it circles back to Maguire. For all that Maguire is an easy meme, he's been consistently fantastic for England. There's a reason why he made the Team of the Tournament for Euro 2020 when he only played in the knockout stages. People need to actually watch games instead of forming opinions from Internet shitposts.

I’d argue that Pepe was world class but that doesn’t detract from your point.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Starting CBs of major tournament winners since 2010:

Spain 24: Le Normand and Laporte
Argentina 22: Romero and Otamendi
Italy 21: Chiellini and Bonucci
France 18: Umtiti and Varane
Portugal 16: Pepe and Jose Fonte
Germany 14: Boateng and Hummels
Spain 12: Pique and Ramos
Spain 10: Pique and Puyol

4/8 have two world class CBs (Italy, Germany, and the two Spains). 1/8 has a world class CB paired with a very good CB (France). 2/8 have a very good CB paired with a mediocre CB (Argentina, Portugal). 1/8 have a pair of mediocre CBs (Spain).

A world class CB duo is obviously a great thing to have that enhances your chances of winning a tournament. But tournaments have been won without them! Stones is comfortably on the level of multiple guys here who had been the 'better' CB in pairings, and England have CB prospects fully capable of being better than the f***ing Otamendis of the world.

And it all comes back to the core point, which is that these games are not played on paper. For all that the panic has consistently been "England have bad CBs", their issue was always in the parts of the pitch where they're fantastic on paper, because their offensive coaching was f***ing dreadful.

And it's always so funny when it circles back to Maguire. For all that Maguire is an easy meme, he's been consistently fantastic for England. There's a reason why he made the Team of the Tournament for Euro 2020 when he only played in the knockout stages. People need to actually watch games instead of forming opinions from Internet shitposts.

France had 2 world class CBs and Argentina had one but not getting into the nitty gritty and derailing it. Portugal Greeced their way to a title they're an anomaly. England with their fire power would have to completely alter their mentality and I doubt that'll happen. consistently fantastic yet dropped....

 

[Venkman]

Tuchel signed the contract on the 8th October according to the announcement article.

Ornstein says Pep was first choice. Telegraph saying he's considering a one year extension at City.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1846297206145667259

 

[cgf]

France had 2 world class CBs and Argentina had one but not getting into the nitty gritty and derailing it. Portugal Greeced their way to a title they're an anomaly. England with their fire power would have to completely alter their mentality and I doubt that'll happen. consistently fantastic yet dropped....

Do the english have that much firepower? Or are they just over-rated because they get to play against EPL defenses? I'm partially joking, but I also don't think this is some attacking juggernaut that it's all that much of a disappointment to see not win anything.

They obviously have the talent to play better football, but do they actually have the talent to get better results than they have...regardless of how much those results had to do with the draw? Cause I can't say I really feel that team has under-achieved from a results perspective.

 

[cgf]

Starting CBs of major tournament winners since 2010:

Spain 24: Le Normand and Laporte
Argentina 22: Romero and Otamendi
Italy 21: Chiellini and Bonucci
France 18: Umtiti and Varane
Portugal 16: Pepe and Jose Fonte
Germany 14: Boateng and Hummels
Spain 12: Pique and Ramos
Spain 10: Pique and Puyol

4/8 have two world class CBs (Italy, Germany, and the two Spains). 1/8 has a world class CB paired with a very good CB (France). 2/8 have a very good CB paired with a mediocre CB (Argentina, Portugal). 1/8 have a pair of mediocre CBs (Spain).

A world class CB duo is obviously a great thing to have that enhances your chances of winning a tournament. But tournaments have been won without them! Stones is comfortably on the level of multiple guys here who had been the 'better' CB in pairings, and England have CB prospects fully capable of being better than the f***ing Otamendis of the world.

And it all comes back to the core point, which is that these games are not played on paper. For all that the panic has consistently been "England have bad CBs", their issue was always in the parts of the pitch where they're fantastic on paper, because their offensive coaching was f***ing dreadful.

And it's always so funny when it circles back to Maguire. For all that Maguire is an easy meme, he's been consistently fantastic for England. There's a reason why he made the Team of the Tournament for Euro 2020 when he only played in the knockout stages. People need to actually watch games instead of forming opinions from Internet shitposts.

Thanks for this, interesting to see...but I do think that it does skip over some nuances, like the way those CBs affected the way their teams could play.

You don't need the best CBs in the world to park the bus with 10 men committed to defending their keeper, the same way you do if you're going to ask them to defend at the halfway line, with some attackers that coast against the ball, ya know?

My mind goes to Portugal...who won their trophy by somehow managing to be more negative than DD's France. Part of why they played that way was cowardly & mediocre coaching, but part of that was they didn't have a Puyol/Ramos-Pique or Mats-Boa.

And I think Southgate was essentially England's Santos. A mediocre coach who lacked the courage or talent to compensate for his non-world-class CBs in a better way than just playing much more conservatively in an effort to limit their exposure.

Like Spain and Italy's latest trophies were won with the pressing cohesion of a club side. When you press that well, you can get away with old or mediocre CBs without handicapping yourself creatively.

Another part of this is the goalkeeping, I get that Pickford hasn't been a disaster for their NT but he doesn't command opponents respect or have the kind of aura that the big keepers do...and that helps you compensate for your CBs without major tactical changes.

So it's a cumulative thing. England's lack of an elite CB (or CB pair) contributes, their lack of an imposing keeper contributes, the coaching contributes, their lack of an elite holding midfielder contributes, their attackers underwhelming even given the context contributes, etc.

More better or more courageous could tip the balance, but I dunno if TT is talented enough to do so...cause I'm pretty confident he won't be courageous enough.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Do the english have that much firepower? Or are they just over-rated because they get to play against EPL defenses? I'm partially joking, but I also don't think this is some attacking juggernaut that it's all that much of a disappointment to see not win anything.

They obviously have the talent to play better football, but do they actually have the talent to get better results than they have...regardless of how much those results had to do with the draw? Cause I can't say I really feel that team has under-achieved from a results perspective.

This partial joke might work better if:

1. Harry Kane wasn’t making Bundesliga defenders look like morons week-in, week-out
2. England’s most lionized attacking midfielder had played even a single career minute in the PL
3. Foden and Saka had played badly in the Champions League, rather than brilliantly

You are correct to an extent that England haven’t underperformed from a results perspective. In the three tournaments they entered as favourites, they’ve been to two finals and lost the other in a very close QF where they were the better side.

But two things make it plainly seem like underperformance.

1. Euro 2020 was basically a home tournament. It really should’ve been a win.
2. Euro 2024 they played like absolute f***ing garbage.

The knowledge that they had enough talent to make a final while playing like shit makes the question of “oh man what would they be capable of with good coaching” a natural one. Southgate did a very very good job bringing the team through in 2018, but he should’ve stepped aside after 2020 when it was clear the quality of the squad had outgrown him.

It’d be like asking after Euro 2012 if Jogi had really underperformed, given a final and two semis. And the answer would be yes.

Thanks for this, interesting to see...but I do think that it does skip over some nuances, like the way those CBs affected the way their teams could play.

You don't need the best CBs in the world to park the bus with 10 men committed to defending their keeper, the same way you do if you're going to ask them to defend at the halfway line, with some attackers that coast against the ball, ya know?

My mind goes to Portugal...who won their trophy by somehow managing to be more negative than DD's France. Part of why they played that way was cowardly & mediocre coaching, but part of that was they didn't have a Puyol/Ramos-Pique or Mats-Boa.

And I think Southgate was essentially England's Santos. A mediocre coach who lacked the courage or talent to compensate for his non-world-class CBs in a better way than just playing much more conservatively in an effort to limit their exposure.

Like Spain and Italy's latest trophies were won with the pressing cohesion of a club side. When you press that well, you can get away with old or mediocre CBs without handicapping yourself creatively.

Another part of this is the goalkeeping, I get that Pickford hasn't been a disaster for their NT but he doesn't command opponents respect or have the kind of aura that the big keepers do...and that helps you compensate for your CBs without major tactical changes.

So it's a cumulative thing. England's lack of an elite CB (or CB pair) contributes, their lack of an imposing keeper contributes, the coaching contributes, their lack of an elite holding midfielder contributes, their attackers underwhelming even given the context contributes, etc.

More better or more courageous could tip the balance, but I dunno if TT is talented enough to do so...cause I'm pretty confident he won't be courageous enough.

I think all of this is true. Southgate’s conservatism was definitely partially compensatory. But it’s funny that you flag Italy and Spain’s club-level pressing as the key for them, because that’s a major part of why I think Tuchel for England has a decent chance of working.

 

[cgf]

This partial joke might work better if:

1. Harry Kane wasn’t making Bundesliga defenders look like morons week-in, week-out
2. England’s most lionized attacking midfielder had played even a single career minute in the PL
3. Foden and Saka had played badly in the Champions League, rather than brilliantly

You are correct to an extent that England haven’t underperformed from a results perspective. In the three tournaments they entered as favourites, they’ve been to two finals and lost the other in a very close QF where they were the better side.

But two things make it plainly seem like underperformance.

1. Euro 2020 was basically a home tournament. It really should’ve been a win.
2. Euro 2024 they played like absolute f***ing garbage.

The knowledge that they had enough talent to make a final while playing like shit makes the question of “oh man what would they be capable of with good coaching” a natural one. Southgate did a very very good job bringing the team through in 2018, but he should’ve stepped aside after 2020 when it was clear the quality of the squad had outgrown him.

It’d be like asking after Euro 2012 if Jogi had really underperformed, given a final and two semis. And the answer would be yes.


I think all of this is true. Southgate’s conservatism was definitely partially compensatory. But it’s funny that you flag Italy and Spain’s club-level pressing as the key for them, because that’s a major part of why I think Tuchel for England has a decent chance of working.

I would never make fun of Harry Kane joining the best team he's ever been on. That's one of the men who was most pivotal in ending Bayern's dynasty, and he deserves nothing but praise...one of the men...

It's hard for me to say england underachieved when many of us felt like Spain/Italy was the real final in 2020. Same way I can't say they underachieved in 2024 after watching that Spain/Germany match.

Both times they landed on the JV side of the bracket and lost to the first top team they faced. Maybe on paper they should have been better, but it's not like they are so overloaded with talent that there should have been any expectation of them winning something.

We're not talking about DD's France, Jogi's Germany, or Spain's golden generation, ya know? This is more like de Bruyne's Belgium...enough talent where a win wouldn't be a shock, but never an overwhelming advantage.

TT could certainly make them a more serious team, he is a very good tactician, but he is limited by the talent he has to work with and I'm not sure he's enough of a change to the culture...to borrow an NBA-ism...but it could work if they really buy in and some players surprise.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Do the english have that much firepower? Or are they just over-rated because they get to play against EPL defenses? I'm partially joking, but I also don't think this is some attacking juggernaut that it's all that much of a disappointment to see not win anything.

They obviously have the talent to play better football, but do they actually have the talent to get better results than they have...regardless of how much those results had to do with the draw? Cause I can't say I really feel that team has under-achieved from a results perspective.

There's some truth to this, that they are overhyped because of exposure and media but I would say its less so than previous generations.

 

[Epictetus]

English media's reaction is disgraceful

 

[JoVel]

English media's reaction is disgraceful

Never would've guessed.

 

[Epictetus]

Never would've guessed.

I would expect it from some of the fanbase still living in the past but not from the people who talk football for a living.

 

[Jussi]

English media's reaction is disgraceful

Even DR Sports called them, including Neville and Carragher, out for it:

 

[PeteWorrell]

The English media is very conservative. The only answer to that is success like Arsène Wenger did when he came to Arsenal and changed the culture.

 

[Savant]

The English media is very conservative.

Plenty of conservative fans too. And they are butt hurt that their German bombers song may not hit the same

 

[PeteWorrell]

The Premier League managers with the most titles have not been English.

The ones with the most wins are Ferguson, Guardiola, Wenger and Mourinho.

But England's manager should magically be a world class englishman.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

England had foreign managers for over 10 years between Eriksson and Capello. Was it a big deal then? I don't recall it.

 

[Jack Straw]

The Premier League managers with the most titles have not been English.

The ones with the most wins are Ferguson, Guardiola, Wenger and Mourinho.

But England's manager should magically be a world class englishman.

Forget about “most” titles, how about “any” titles? No English manager has won the Premier League.

 

[Epictetus]

Even DR Sports called them, including Neville and Carragher, out for it:

They are right - Would LOVE to see Carragher and Neville complain if Klopp or Guardiola took the job.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

The English media is very conservative.

the word you’re looking for is stupid.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

England had foreign managers for over 10 years between Eriksson and Capello. Was it a big deal then? I don't recall it.

Extremely so. Part of what makes the media reaction to Tuchel so embarrassing is that this same media did this (more intensely) with Sven and less than a month ago was doing mea culpae in his obituaries.