Managements worst slaps in Face to star players

[RobertKron]

Either way Linden was a replacement level player on ice and did nothing to prove the coaches wrong or indeed even just earn his ice time.

lol

 

[kaiser matias]

He was certainly beginning his offensive decline after peaking a year or so earlier. He was still a 20g/40p over 82 games guy, which he pretty much maintained for the next 8 years. Replacement level is more than a stretch.

But that's kinda beside the point. He was still THE leader of that team. Naslund would emerge a couple of years later.
Bottom line is you don't take a C off of the player unless it's something egregious. If you want to change leadership you make a trade (see Horvat). To give the C to the anointed one who hadn't yet (and never would) earned the respect of his teammates just added insult to injury.

Keenan's primary objective and strategy was to embarrass Linden. It was a jerk move by any standard.

Much as Keenan deserves any and all criticism, that wasn't his move. Tom Renney was coach at that time.

 

[Vector]

Much as Keenan deserves any and all criticism, that wasn't his move. Tom Renney was coach at that time.

Yeah, this was purely an ownership decision.

 

[Albatros]

He was certainly beginning his offensive decline after peaking a year or so earlier. He was still a 20g/40p over 82 games guy, which he pretty much maintained for the next 8 years. Replacement level is more than a stretch.

But that's kinda beside the point. He was still THE leader of that team. Naslund would emerge a couple of years later.
Bottom line is you don't take a C off of the player unless it's something egregious. If you want to change leadership you make a trade (see Horvat). To give the C to the anointed one who hadn't yet (and never would) earned the respect of his teammates just added insult to injury.

Keenan's primary objective and strategy was to embarrass Linden. It was a jerk move by any standard.

I would treat these questions separately. No matter what one wishes to think about Messier in Vancouver, Keenan was still right to keep Linden demoted to an 'A' once his on-ice performance fell off the cliff and he became the type of player to provide veteran leadership in the room rather than lead a successful team on the ice. Whatever his pace, he never scored 20 goals again and had only two 40-point seasons out of ten. That at 27.

Once he was traded, the Islanders tried giving him the captaincy and subsequently went on to have one of the worst seasons in franchise history. That's obviously by no means all on Linden, but regardless he was no longer capable of taking a weak team anywhere the way he did with the early 1990s Canucks. Once he returned back to Vancouver a few years later at 31, he received the same 'A' he had with Keenan and an even more limited on-ice role, to everyone's benefit.

 

[iceburg]

Much as Keenan deserves any and all criticism, that wasn't his move. Tom Renney was coach at that time.

Fair enough...my memory has failed me. I just think of Messier and Keenan being one and the same in Vancouver.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Yeah, this was purely an ownership decision.

I would say Keenan's subsequent treatment of Linden - including the famed locker room tirade - was the slap in the face that came from Keenan.

By his own admission, no one forced Linden's hand in giving up the C. It was his idea, although probably driven by no small amount of market pressure and speculation about it...and maybe a little internal pressure as well, which would have had to have come from Quinn, Renney, ownership, etc.. I think the real slap in the face there came from "THE GREATEST LEADER EVER" accepting the damn thing when he should have said "no man, it's yours - I'm here to help", as Linden did years later with Markus Naslund upon his return to Vancouver.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

maybe more than just a semantics argument, nobody took the C from linden. he offered it to messier.

now he has suggested that it maybe wasn’t cool of messier to accept it, or even pretend back him before taking it, but certainly it wasn’t anybody taking the letter away from linden.

that said, i have no doubt that a hostile work environment was created by numerous parties, including the media, to drive linden to that point.

 

[iceburg]

I would treat these questions separately. No matter what one wishes to think about Messier in Vancouver, Keenan was still right to keep Linden demoted to an 'A' once his on-ice performance fell off the cliff and he became the type of player to provide veteran leadership in the room rather than lead a successful team on the ice. Whatever his pace, he never scored 20 goals again and had only two 40-point seasons out of ten. That at 27.

Once he was traded, the Islanders tried giving him the captaincy and subsequently went on to have one of the worst seasons in franchise history. That's obviously by no means all on Linden, but regardless he was no longer capable of taking a weak team anywhere the way he did with the early 1990s Canucks. Once he returned back to Vancouver a few years later at 31, he received the same 'A' he had with Keenan and an even more limited on-ice role, to everyone's benefit.

I counted 1 year twice! Oops. He had 109g/157a for 266 pts in 501 games over 7 years from the ages of 27 to 33. That's 18g/27a = 45 pt average over 82 games. Sure, he had some injuries but his production when healthy was middle 6. That's not "replacement level". His production really fell off after the lost year in 2004 when he came back for 05/06 as a 35 year old. He still went on to play over 200 games.

I guess the obvious question is, if he was a replacement level player, how come nobody replaced him for 700+ games after he turned 27?

 

[iceburg]

I would say Keenan's subsequent treatment of Linden - including the famed locker room tirade - was the slap in the face that came from Keenan.

By his own admission, no one forced Linden's hand in giving up the C. It was his idea, although probably driven by no small amount of market pressure and speculation about it...and maybe a little internal pressure as well, which would have had to have come from Quinn, Renney, ownership, etc.. I think the real slap in the face there came from "THE GREATEST LEADER EVER" accepting the damn thing when he should have said "no man, it's yours - I'm here to help", as Linden did years later with Markus Naslund upon his return to Vancouver.

I agree. I was a little off in my initial post but the transfer of the C and acceptance by he who shall not be named was incredibly disrespectful. I had also forgotten how Linden handled his return with Naslund. Another demonstration of leadership by Linden.

 

[PavelBure10]

Messier taking the C from Linden, then wearing an honored number (11) for the late Wayne Maki. It was a rough start as soon as Messier arrived in Vancouver.

It was unfortunate for Linden the way management treated him, but Linden was always the gift that kept on giving. The Islander/Canucks trade will go down as one of the best in franchise history.

Linden for Bertuzzi, McCabe and a 3rd rounder which ended up being Jarkko Ruutu. Amazing deal that changed the whole outlook of the Canucks after the "Mess"ier years.

Really happy that Linden came back in the twilight of his career to finish off his career as a Vancouver Canuck.

Also think Linden got shafted when he was the President of the team. I think Aqualinni was the puppet master of the whole operation while Linden taken the fall for Aquamans and Bennings stupidity. I think our captain Canuck name got tarnished a bit, but in all honestly it was Linden who knew this team needed a rebuild from the very beginning of the Benning years. Just our stupid owner and GM didn't want to hear it.

Either way Linden is a beauty and he deserved better.

 

[kaiser matias]

Fair enough...my memory has failed me. I just think of Messier and Keenan being one and the same in Vancouver.

That while era is a blur, best forgotten.

 

[Albatros]

I counted 1 year twice! Oops. He had 109g/157a for 266 pts in 501 games over 7 years from the ages of 27 to 33. That's 18g/27a = 45 pt average over 82 games. Sure, he had some injuries but his production when healthy was middle 6. That's not "replacement level". His production really fell off after the lost year in 2004 when he came back for 05/06 as a 35 year old. He still went on to play over 200 games.

I guess the obvious question is, if he was a replacement level player, how come nobody replaced him for 700+ games after he turned 27?

Evidently because he was good veteran presence, his production between 97/98 and 07/08 was most similar to Derek Morris who was a physical defenseman. Until 2004 his pace was the same as Chris Gratton's, but missing more games. I wouldn't necessarily romanticize how hard it is to replace that on the ice.

 

[Hit the post]

Fair enough...my memory has failed me. I just think of Messier and Keenan being one and the same in Vancouver.

One is pig shit & the other is chicken shit. Actually Messier is both.

 

[LandfiII]

Evidently because he was good veteran presence, his production between 97/98 and 07/08 was most similar to Derek Morris who was a physical defenseman. Until 2004 his pace was the same as Chris Gratton's, but missing more games. I wouldn't necessarily romanticize how hard it is to replace that on the ice.

NHL player Derek Morris.

 

[F A N]

Either way Linden was a replacement level player on ice and did nothing to prove the coaches wrong or indeed even just earn his ice time.

I think your definition of "replacement level player" greatly differs from mine.

He was certainly beginning his offensive decline after peaking a year or so earlier. He was still a 20g/40p over 82 games guy, which he pretty much maintained for the next 8 years. Replacement level is more than a stretch.

But that's kinda beside the point. He was still THE leader of that team. Naslund would emerge a couple of years later.
Bottom line is you don't take a C off of the player unless it's something egregious. If you want to change leadership you make a trade (see Horvat). To give the C to the anointed one who hadn't yet (and never would) earned the respect of his teammates just added insult to injury.

Keenan's primary objective and strategy was to embarrass Linden. It was a jerk move by any standard.

The media kind of put pressure on his as well to cede the captaincy to what was trumped as the greatest captain. I think the whole thing could of handled better. Quinn should have came out and defended Linden's captaincy but Messier should have refused the C. But of course...

Once he was traded, the Islanders tried giving him the captaincy and subsequently went on to have one of the worst seasons in franchise history. That's obviously by no means all on Linden, but regardless he was no longer capable of taking a weak team anywhere the way he did with the early 1990s Canucks. Once he returned back to Vancouver a few years later at 31, he received the same 'A' he had with Keenan and an even more limited on-ice role, to everyone's benefit.

I think there were a multitude of reasons for Linden's decline. Offensively, I always felt he was more suited to be on the wing but coaches and GMs liked what he brought at C.

Offensively, he's mostly a north south player. A very good skater for his size with good hands and a good shot. Consenquently, he was good off the rush and good in close. Too bad teams didn't play him at RW with a playmaking C.

 

[MarkMM]

I think your definition of "replacement level player" greatly differs from mine.


The media kind of put pressure on his as well to cede the captaincy to what was trumped as the greatest captain. I think the whole thing could of handled better. Quinn should have came out and defended Linden's captaincy but Messier should have refused the C. But of course...



I think there were a multitude of reasons for Linden's decline. Offensively, I always felt he was more suited to be on the wing but coaches and GMs liked what he brought at C.

Offensively, he's mostly a north south player. A very good skater for his size with good hands and a good shot. Consenquently, he was good off the rush and good in close. Too bad teams didn't play him at RW with a playmaking C.

My favourite time of him was when he was RW with Cliff Ronning as his centre and Geoff Courtnall on the other wing.

 

[RobertKron]

Just wanted to point out that the Isles had worse seasons in 95-96 and 00-01, as well as maintaining basically an identical record the year after Linden. The season OP is referencing is in the middle of a seven year period where they missed the playoffs and were under .500 every year.

It should have been obvious when they said he was a replacement level player in the summer of '97, but you guys are arguing with someone who isn't posting in good faith.

 

[PavelBure10]

Also good call on the organisation trying to pay Bure's salary in Canadian funds. To think the Canucks tried to screw their very first super star. A player who generated millions of dollars in revenue with eager hockey fans who just wanted to see him play. Bure put the Canucks on the map. He was so popular that the Canucks organisation had to build a bigger area "GM Place" so fans could come and see him. To think that the organisation tried to lowball their franchise player, and try to trick him by paying him Canadian funds is just despicable. Somehow it was Bure who was made out to be the bad guy throughout all of this, and I don't blame Pavel for wanting to leave the team.

To add, Bure boycotting the playoffs until he got paid was apparently BS aswell.

I was heartbroken when the Russian Rocket was traded away for Jovanovski and a bunch of crap. I must admit I never truly respected Jovocop as much as I probably should. I kind of resented him because I thought Bure was the far superior player. Or maybe it was simply because he was traded in return for my all-time favorite player.

Oh how I miss the days of #10

 

[Vector]

Just wanted to point out that the Isles had worse seasons in 95-96 and 00-01, as well as maintaining basically an identical record the year after Linden. The season OP is referencing is in the middle of a seven year period where they missed the playoffs and were under .500 every year.

It should have been obvious when they said he was a replacement level player in the summer of '97, but you guys are arguing with someone who isn't posting in good faith.

I’m surprised anyone took the bait.

 

[RobertKron]

My favourite time of him was when he was RW with Cliff Ronning as his centre and Geoff Courtnall on the other wing.

Life Line 4 Life

 

[iceburg]

My favourite time of him was when he was RW with Cliff Ronning as his centre and Geoff Courtnall on the other wing.

Loved that line. Ronning was one of the most gifted players to ever play for the team. I was sad to see him go.

 

[carjackmalone]

Messier taking C from Linden
Luongo sitting on the bench for the winter classic

For me these are the two most disrespectful moves by management/coaching and I don't think it's close. Both Linden and Luongo were undisputed leaders on their teams and both were marginalized by coaches that thought the best way to manage players was to play mind games with them.

And number 11 from the rafters

 

[rypper]

And number 11 from the rafters

Was it actually in the rafters or just unofficially retired.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Was it actually in the rafters or just unofficially retired.

Unofficially retired.

 

[LuckyDay]

To be fair, given Jr. lost all his money, maybe cheap was the way to go.

That was the enigma of AG,Sr wasn't it. He knew how to make money. Like by owning the team and the media engine around it. Or as part of it.
He was smart enough to get the Owners to settle their alignment dispute by suggesting the Panthers and Canucks play in the same division, showing the other owners what petty idiots they were.
But his kid grew up the opposite, entitled with no understanding of the value of money. It was just a another rich boy toy to him. The first time he was given it Tiger Williams told him to, "get a job". Somehow he convinced the NBA Vancouver was a major league basketball market.

But reagarding Sr, these were all crap moves on players and the team that were objectively bad. Getting into the first round was all he needed to make money - which was easy to do then. All you needed to do was get past Winnipeg. You didn't need to play .500 hockey. Was going to the finals a potential problem them for all the money he made? All his costs would sore?
Recall he threatened the move the team when they were getting 7000 fans a night for games in the mid-80's. The city's fans cried back, go ahead. We should we watch a team that can't win and trades away all our good players and prospects?

Canucks management had ZERO to do with Larionov not re-signing. He didn't sign with *ANY* other NHL team but played in Europe because the Professor refused to give a chunk of his salary to the Soviet authorities (as per their agreement between the two hockey organizations). At least that's my understanding of the events. Now one can question them not trying harder to get him back after that "sabbatical".

Hmm, and I was under the impression it was like the deal they had with Sweden and other leagues regarding transfer fees for their players.
Hindsight not only shows it was a bad move, though on paper and from the fan/media reaction of their overhyped initial failure it was obvious response to let him walk.
But it's also long rumoured to be another sore point with Bure because The Professor was so idolized by the other Russian players. He was Bure's center on the top line in his third year.

Unofficially retired.

To be fair, retiring jersey numbers was pretty rare at the time in any major sport and wasn't always done by hanging them the rafters.

At best, the new ownership/management forgot or weren't aware of it. At worst, they somehow hoped the fans and media wouldn't notice.