Management Thread. For a Few Dollars More: Gunslinger Edition, Pt II

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What’s funny or sad, depending on your perspective, how you literally don’t mention the preceding sentence. Like, you either think you are pulling a fast one by ignoring this, or somehow don’t understand the importance of it.

The full quote:

“We want to be competitive next year,” Benning said. “Realistically, if you’re asking me when will the day be that we can compete with the best teams in the league, I think that (Sedin contract) timeline is fair. This is Year 2, and by our fourth or fifth year, I hope we’ll be there with the elite teams in the league.”

Like, to dismiss the preceding quote - where it is literally prefaced with “realistically” - as just being hopeful, is so obviously at odds with any reasonable interpretation of this excerpt I’m left absolutely dumbfounded.

I think a reasonable interpretation of this quote (i.e., one where no words are redefined) would be that Benning both expected and hoped this team would compete with the best teams in the league by the end of the Sedins contract.

Saying he ‘expected’ and was ‘hopeful’ is reasonable..

At no point did he flat out say we will be up there with the elite teams in 4-5 years.(which the poster I was replying to implied.)

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Those “reports” (I call them tweets lol) from credible sources who weren’t in the room either and may have heard it second or third hand are a lot further from perfect than your confidence portrays. They’re also very vague and don’t lend any credence to the condemnations of Benning that came in the wake of Brackett’s departure.

I literally said they’re not perfect and are all we have to go off. Your reading comprehension is terrible.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The "Benning was overruled over Pettersson" crap was just made up by MS. MS decided to paint that story himself. Lot of posters look up to MS. Then all of sudden a lot of people thought the Benning was overruled over Pettersson is true.

If people want to paint there own picture of the story. Fair enough however they can't use that as an argument is there is no clear evidence.

Linden said something along the lines" it is very to important to give scouts the autonomy to make the Pettersson pick, then he said something not just the scouting department, any department. Very important to trust The people.

All Linden is really saying is even I am the president. You have the right to make decisions and I don't need to give the final say. That's it.

I have no idea how Linden saying I give this and that department autonomy leads to Benning was overruled.

Again,..there isn’t a single legit source that claims that Benning was overruled....You won’t read about this being a fact anywhere else but in this thread..

Utilizing echo chamber validation,quite a few posters here ,get away with all types of nonsense conspiracy theories.

 

[iloovRMB]

I literally said they’re not perfect and are all we have to go off. Your reading comprehension is terrible.

That’s uncontroversial and uncontested. My speculation after reading the reports you linked were 100% consistent and logical assumptions given the information presented. You haven’t challenged any of the substance but you still decided to call it “garbage” - THAT’S garbage. You HAVE to admit that what has been reported very much lacks details. We are pretty much forced to speculate.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

That’s uncontroversial and uncontested. My speculation after reading the reports you linked were 100% consistent and logical assumptions given the information presented. You haven’t challenged any of the substance but you still decided to call it “garbage” - THAT’S garbage. You HAVE to admit that what has been reported very much lacks details. We are pretty much forced to speculate.

Because the reports didn't say what you posted. You made up a bunch of nonsense that wasn't supported by any reporter. I only posted things that were paraphrased by the reports - so they're not my opinion, but taken from the tweets. I've never seen someone double down on being wrong so many times.

 

[MS]

Again,..there isn’t a single legit source that claims that Benning was overruled....You won’t read about this being a fact anywhere else but in this thread..

Utilizing echo chamber validation,quite a few posters here ,get away with all types of nonsense conspiracy theories.

There are plenty of legit sources, but you've decided they aren't legitimate because you don't like what they're saying.

There is no other explanation for what Linden said. Period. He referenced people who are 'dangerous' because they haven't seen enough games, and that could only be referring to two people. He said that he had to give Brackett autonomy, and that could only be autonomy over two people. Anyone with an ounce of common sense and understanding of drafts would know that the Team President wouldn't be involving himself in a draft pick if the head scout and GM were aligned.

The funniest thing about this is that you've admitted that Linden 'intervened' but won't admit that he 'overruled'. Just like how you've invented new and incorrect meanings for the words 'narrative' and 'autonomy' in a lame attempt to try convincing yourself that this didn't happen.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

There are plenty of legit sources, but you've decided they aren't legitimate because you don't like what they're saying.

There is no other explanation for what Linden said. Period. He referenced people who are 'dangerous' because they haven't seen enough games, and that could only be referring to two people. He said that he had to give Brackett autonomy, and that could only be autonomy over two people. Anyone with an ounce of common sense and understanding of drafts would know that the Team President wouldn't be involving himself in a draft pick if the head scout and GM were aligned.

The funniest thing about this is that you've admitted that Linden 'intervened' but won't admit that he 'overruled'. Just like how you've invented new and incorrect meanings for the words 'narrative' and 'autonomy' in a lame attempt to try convincing yourself that this didn't happen.

See this picture:

View attachment 377147

 

[sting101]

There are plenty of legit sources, but you've decided they aren't legitimate because you don't like what they're saying.

There is no other explanation for what Linden said. Period. He referenced people who are 'dangerous' because they haven't seen enough games, and that could only be referring to two people. He said that he had to give Brackett autonomy, and that could only be autonomy over two people. Anyone with an ounce of common sense and understanding of drafts would know that the Team President wouldn't be involving himself in a draft pick if the head scout and GM were aligned.

The funniest thing about this is that you've admitted that Linden 'intervened' but won't admit that he 'overruled'. Just like how you've invented new and incorrect meanings for the words 'narrative' and 'autonomy' in a lame attempt to try convincing yourself that this didn't happen.

At least Linden did something right by overruling the Aquilini"s. If only he would have done that in 2014.

 

[Hodgy]

There are plenty of legit sources, but you've decided they aren't legitimate because you don't like what they're saying.

There is no other explanation for what Linden said. Period. He referenced people who are 'dangerous' because they haven't seen enough games, and that could only be referring to two people. He said that he had to give Brackett autonomy, and that could only be autonomy over two people. Anyone with an ounce of common sense and understanding of drafts would know that the Team President wouldn't be involving himself in a draft pick if the head scout and GM were aligned.

The funniest thing about this is that you've admitted that Linden 'intervened' but won't admit that he 'overruled'. Just like how you've invented new and incorrect meanings for the words 'narrative' and 'autonomy' in a lame attempt to try convincing yourself that this didn't happen.

The meaning of Linden’s comments are pretty apparent if you answer this following question which I have already posed to @Pastor Of Muppetz: if Benning was ultimately going to pick Pettersson, why would Linden use the Pettersson pick as an example of the importance of giving the scouting department the autonomy to make the pick?

 

[Hodgy]

Saying he ‘expected’ and was ‘hopeful’ is reasonable..

At no point did he flat out say we will be up there with the elite teams in 4-5 years.(which the poster I was replying to implied.)

Not one is going to guarantee the future. This just doesn’t happen in real life outside of extremely unique situations like Messier guaranteeing a win. People just don’t talk like this because everyone knows there is no guaranteed future outcome. Looking for this type of guarantee is asinine, and frankly, not necessary.

The quote is important because it shows Benning failed to achieve his own expectations, and that all of these shitty years and top picks were not planned, nor expected. It also shows that, contrary to your dubious claim that bad years were inevitable, Benning himself disagreed. Benning didn’t think bad years were inevitable; he thought this team could compete with the top teams as of a few years ago.

The above conclusions incontrovertibly flow from the most obvious and plain meaning interpretation of the above quote. Disagreeing with this just makes you seem delusional.

 

[I am toxic]

So many hills littered with the rotting corpses of HFBenning.

Don't get me wrong, I love that they come here to troll HFCanucks, entertains me while waiting for hockey to return, but that's just me . . . I mean . . . username . . . you know . . .

 

[MS]

The meaning of Linden’s comments are pretty apparent if you answer this following question which I have already posed to @Pastor Of Muppetz: if Benning was ultimately going to pick Pettersson, why would Linden use the Pettersson pick as an example of the importance of giving the scouting department the autonomy to make the pick?

It's so ridiculous. It's absolutely crystal-clear what Linden was explaining and talking about, from referencing 'dangerous executives' who could only be Benning and Weisbrod to needing to give Brackett autonomy over people who could only be Benning and Weisbrod.

The best part is the absolutely ludicrous explanations you see when you challenge these people to actually give an explanation that matches the facts. My favourite was that Linden was giving Brackett autonomy over ... Linden.

If Benning actually wanted Pettersson and was going to select Pettersson, absolutely nothing Linden said makes any sense at all. And nor does the mountain of other circumstantial evidence.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Not one is going to guarantee the future. This just doesn’t happen in real life outside of extremely unique situations like Messier guaranteeing a win. People just don’t talk like this because everyone knows there is no guaranteed future outcome. Looking for this type of guarantee is asinine, and frankly, not necessary.

The quote is important because it shows Benning failed to achieve his own expectations, and that all of these shitty years and top picks were not planned, nor expected. It also shows that, contrary to your dubious claim that bad years were inevitable, Benning himself disagreed. Benning didn’t think bad years were inevitable; he thought this team could compete with the top teams as of a few years ago.

The above conclusions incontrovertibly flow from the most obvious and plain meaning interpretation of the above quote. Disagreeing with this just makes you seem delusional.

Clearly, Benning said that there was work to be done on this roster...He put expectations on himself, and hoped for the best..He didn't guarantee anything.

The shitty years (the first 3) were not planned, they were trying to make the playoffs, and rebuild simultaneously...It was a failure...On the Sedins final year 2017-18,(or after that) I only recall Benning saying they were going to be 'competitive' ( not a playoff team ,let alone one of the top teams)..Link the source to those comments from a few years ago.

Of course, Benning tried to put on a positive face for the fans and media (what else did you expect him to say?)...The Sedins were rapidly deteriorating, and there wasn't any impact talent coming up through the ranks (you don't fix a decades worth of atrocious drafting in 2-3 years)....Benning,Linden and ownership knew this, thats why they never went completely 'all in'..Louie Eriksson was the last major UFA signing, until Myers 2 years later..

Just like the Senators,Ducks,Red Wings,Kings situations now....The Canucks were in that situation 4 years ago..The piper had to be paid until they could build up their prospect pool..Looking at those Canuck rosters 2015-18, I had no delusions of those teams.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Somebody post a legitimate quote that states that Benning was overruled on Pettersson....(the autonomy quote aint it)..I'll wait.

 

[MS]

Seems to me that the kitchen was too hot for Judd and he couldn't handle it. That's fine, some people have different personalities that don't like conflict and hopefully he gets that in Minnesota. But we shouldn't want that here, there should always be a lively discussion and debate around players - if there isn't then the scouts aren't doing their jobs.

What a hilarious take from an account that basically does nothing but shill for John Weisbrod.

Hey, remember when poor little Johnny didn't like that he and Benning were overruled on Pettersson and then wouldn't come up to the podium like a petulant toddler having a tantrum? Talk about not being able to handle the heat of the kitchen ....

Nothing more perfectly sums up Weisbrod than that. Not only was he completely incompetent at his job and completely wrong about everything, he was also a garbage person putting his own ego ahead of the team.

 

[sting101]

Sounds pissed


“He is everything WE were looking for in a player”

 

[MS]

Sounds pissed


“He is everything WE were looking for in a player”

This isn't evidence of anything.

These are exactly the things the GM would say about a top draft pick whether he wanted that player or wanted a different player. He isn't going to sit there saying 'Well, I don't think he's really that good and I kinda wanted another guy but we'll hope for the best or whatever'.

And again, nobody is saying that Benning thought Pettersson was rubbish. Everyone thought he was a top-10 pick in the draft and I'm sure every GM would have been happy in the bigger picture to have been adding any of those 10 players to their organization and found lots of good things to say about them. He just wanted another player more.

This happens all the time in the draft when the player a team really wants gets selected right in front of them. The GM and Head Scout will still sound really positive about the player they did pick, even if they were behind-the-scenes disappointed they didn't get another guy. This is no different.

 

[sting101]

This isn't evidence of anything.

These are exactly the things the GM would say about a top draft pick whether he wanted that player or wanted a different player. He isn't going to sit there saying 'Well, I don't think he's really that good and I kinda wanted another guy but we'll hope for the best or whatever'.

And again, nobody is saying that Benning thought Pettersson was rubbish. Everyone thought he was a top-10 pick in the draft and I'm sure every GM would have been happy in the bigger picture to have been adding any of those 10 players to their organization and found lots of good things to say about them. He just wanted another player more.

This happens all the time in the draft when the player a team really wants gets selected right in front of them. The GM and Head Scout will still sound really positive about the player they did pick, even if they were behind-the-scenes disappointed they didn't get another guy. This is no different.

Seriously?

A real life video of the GM saying that Petey was everything they were looking for in a player and another of him saying he’s the 1C they were hoping to acquire and yet another with Benning drooling over him at the draft and on the floor. These are a facade?

I can believe the Weisbrod argument because at least their are signs he was disgruntled but Benning seems thrilled and always has been about his boy “Petey”

Are you sure it wasn’t Weisbrod and someone else. Or because you don’t like Benning or Weisbrod does that attach them to all the thoughts and processes that are negative.


Benning said. “I don’t want to comment on other teams’ players but with Pettersson, we just feel once he gets his strength up. . . he’s got a chance to be a No. 1 centre and a point producer.
“He’s a highly-skilled player, smart. He makes players that he plays with better. We’ve been following him all year.

Benning was so impressed by Pettersson, whom he couldn’t help notice while watching Dahlen’s development, the GM brought the 18-year-old to Vancouver a month ago after the NHL scouting combine in Buffalo.

 

[sting101]

If at one point Benning was more bullish on Glass who cares.....obviously as things grew he was convinced through his staff and his own interviews and exposure to Petey that he was his guy. That’s s how it should work and he deserves credit for the process that delivered what in my estimation will be the greatest Canuck of all time.

I applaud the process. The best way to get the most from your staff is to challenge them to convince you that you should change your way of thinking on a certain integral part of your business. If you framed it any other way how could you ever get the conviction necessary to devote to it.

It sounds like this is what happened and it echoes true with what we heard about Benning being pissed about no one fighting hard for Pastrnak in 2014.

I could easily argue that had Benning been hired in 2013 that Nylander and Pastrnak would be Canucks today given his direction of the scouting staff.

 

[MS]

Seriously?

A real life video of the GM saying that Petey was everything they were looking for in a player and another of him saying he’s the 1C they were hoping to acquire and yet another with Benning drooling over him at the draft and on the floor. These are a facade?

I can believe the Weisbrod argument because at least their are signs he was disgruntled but Benning seems thrilled and always has been about his boy “Petey”

Are you sure it wasn’t Weisbrod and someone else. Or because you don’t like Benning or Weisbrod does that attach them to all the thoughts and processes that are negative.


Benning said. “I don’t want to comment on other teams’ players but with Pettersson, we just feel once he gets his strength up. . . he’s got a chance to be a No. 1 centre and a point producer.
“He’s a highly-skilled player, smart. He makes players that he plays with better. We’ve been following him all year.

Benning was so impressed by Pettersson, whom he couldn’t help notice while watching Dahlen’s development, the GM brought the 18-year-old to Vancouver a month ago after the NHL scouting combine in Buffalo.

Again, none of this is evidence of anything.

Obviously Benning thought Pettersson was a good prospect. Nobody has ever said otherwise. And of course he'll have a pile of good things to say about a top-10 pick that he might have had ranked as high as #6 overall.

And of course he'll do the job asked of him by his boss (Linden) and of course he'll be positive about whoever he selects.

Multiple times every year in the first round, some team will have their sights set on a guy only to have him taken just before. And those teams will then proceed to rave about the guy they did pick, even thought it wasn't their desired result (this appeared to happen to Calgary this year, as an example). This is exactly the same.

Your logical process here is relying on an impossibility to happen (Benning going rogue and publicly criticizing his team's draft pick) in order to accept what common sense should be telling you has obviously happened.

Oh, and they flew Glass into Vancouver too. And another player. Again, evidence of nothing.

We've been through this so many times. This whole 'Benning said he liked him' thing is like saying, 'Well he couldn't have killed his wife because he went to her funeral and looked sad!' when of course that's exactly what a guilty person would do as well.

Linden's remarks are incredibly clear and there's no way that they can be interpreted that involves the conclusion that Benning was going to draft Pettersson if Linden didn't overrule (or intervene, or 'give autonomy' or however you want to semantically slice it).

 

[Peen]

Peen you f***ing liar all he said was that he hoped it could not that he expected it god you are a moron

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I'm not sold on Benning going up to the podium wanting Glass at all...I think the organization 'as a whole' had mutually agreed on EP way back in the process'.. (a healthy process)...Things were copacetic at that time in the organization, and even after the heated debates, all happily agreed that the 'process' worked.

The Linden authoritarian 'overruled' bit is manufactured crap...Some media has discussed the the whole drafting of EP saga, and it has generated clicks, and radio airplay..None of the legit sports media have confirmed an 'overruling ' as fact.

 

[MS]

I'm not sold on Benning going up to the podium wanting Glass at all...I think the organization 'as a whole' had mutually agreed on EP way back in the process'.. (a healthy process)...Things were copacetic at that time in the organization, and even after the heated debates, all happily agreed that the 'process' worked.

The Linden authoritarian 'overruled' bit is manufactured crap...Some media has discussed the the whole drafting of EP saga, and it has generated clicks, and radio airplay..None of the legit sports media have confirmed an 'overruling ' as fact.

Things were so ‘healthy’ that Weisbrod was pouting and refusing to go to the draft podium. Sounds totally unanimous to me.

 

[Peen]

I will make the point that gets ignored every single time

Hughes was an equal level success as a pick considering where we got him.

Why don't we or the media debate Hughes? Because every single report indicates unity on that pick. Linden, Weisbrod, Benning, Brackett, and everyone else loved the guy according to reports.

So again - wouldn't it make sense to stir up shit on Hughes as well if everything regarding EP was baseless propaganda?

Waiting to be ignored again like I was after the addition error

 

[F A N]

Well, duh.
He came into the Boston job with 6 years of head scout experience with 13 years of scouting experience total. He had no other executive experience. If you don't think he had influence or control over the scouts from the top down and some influence on their picks, then I guess common sense isn't your forté.

I think Hughes was a rare universally agreed upon pick between Weisbrod, Benning, and Brackett.

Ah. Common sense. Did you argue that "common sense" dictates that Benning should have control over the scouts from the top down and influence on their picks with his scouting experience instead of giving Brackett the autonomy that he wanted?