Management Thread Blurst of Times

[Oliewud]

In my view, Miller should prioritize his own performance over concerning himself with teammates' readiness. True leaders elevate the team by empowering others, not scrutinizing them. If Pettersson was indeed unprepared, that’s a matter for coaching staff – not fellow players.

Exactly. This was an indictment on Miller and Tochetts leadership skills

 

[VanJack]

John Shannon on with Donnie and Dhali, saying the Canucks are becoming one of most anticipated teams heading into the off-season. He's expecting fireworks on the trade front.

Maybe there's chance they do a block-buster or two.....but I'm not so sure. I'm pretty confident there's no way they'll bring in nine UFA's like they did last season.

But one fairly significant trade involving the likes of Demko or Garland, or even both, is possible. There's a chance the Cup Final could go into the third week of June--basically a week to 10 days away from Free Agent Frenzy.

I'm almost looking forward to that more than another Oiler-Panthers Cup Final.

 

[FilHronek Orchestra]

The rift was exacerbated by a coach who didn't believe his star player had an injury (nor that a Selke level 100+ point season was how you win in the NHL), and then subsequently asked JT to "toughen him up". This set off a firestorm that was then detonated by a senile old man who can't keep his mouth shut and chose to throw his players under the bus rather than take any blame.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

He hired the worst GM in nhl history that proceeded to ruin my favourite sports team for nearly a decade. He can kiss my ass.

I really dont care how you feel

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

The only people that supported that was hardcore Benning bros..
linden backed a GM and a plan to rebuild? lol that never happened.

You know what, as someone who watched the Sedins for their entire careers, and watched for 6 years before they started, we didn't give them good enough support in their careers.

They were like having the Russian 5 in just two players, but instead of building around that and creating a double cup winner, we had them keep afloat a couple number 2 and 3 D men, and mediocre forward support for much of their careers.

When we gave them elite support, they gave us a top 10 in the last 20 or so years regular season and near Stanley cup, not to mention 2 Presidents trophies, 2 Art Rosses, and a Hart.

All of that to say, I know it failed, but IF the Sedins strongly felt they wanted to be supported in going out competitively, I wouldn't begrudge them or the direction even though it didn't work. I felt we owed them that for what they wove into the fabric of what it means to be a Canuck.

But the execution was horrendous and from the rumors that leaked, it seemed like they wouldn't have minded a rebuild if it was done at the right time in 2016.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

John Shannon on with Donnie and Dhali, saying the Canucks are becoming one of most anticipated teams heading into the off-season. He's expecting fireworks on the trade front.

Maybe there's chance they do a block-buster or two.....but I'm not so sure. I'm pretty confident there's no way they'll bring in nine UFA's like they did last season.

But one fairly significant trade involving the likes of Demko or Garland, or even both, is possible. There's a chance the Cup Final could go into the third week of June--basically a week to 10 days away from Free Agent Frenzy.

I'm almost looking forward to that more than another Oiler-Panthers Cup Final.

I'm DEFINITELY looking forward to the draft and free agency more than the final. I mostly dislike but deeply respect Florida and despise but respect Edmonton in certain ways that make it hard to watch. Even if the hockey is fantastic.

The cognitive dissonance between how incredible Mcdavid and Draisaitl are, and how unlikeable a lot of the team is, as well as their obnoxious and often ignorant online culture (some of the hfoil posters are exhibit A) to go along with the general rivalry makes it very hard to enjoy watching them thrive.

-


And I do think that it's possible that between June 25th (day before draft) and July 3rd that Rutherford and Allvin cement their legacies. They either get it right, and build our team the right way, or they get it wrong and then someone else comes in here with a pretty good base to start with.

I think they will make good moves. I think if they move Pettersson it will be a terrible move but feel fairly confident they won't.

I think the winger we get will be good, I'm really curious to see what center they bet on. I think my baseline is Pavel Zacha. In him I see a 2 year stay of execution, probably good enough to be a 2nd line center on a good team if he's supported, and signed cheaply and short term. If you draft a good center prospect this year he might be approaching NHL ready at that point, or else you re-sign him.

Anyone who fits (or is) worse than that and I'm not stoked.

If they sign Jack Roslovic at a reasonable deal and play him on the wing I'm cool, but if they think he's a passable 2nd line center (they won't, but if they did) then it's Vinny Desharnais levels of negligence.

But all of that to say, it's possible that that week will be quite defining for an era of our favourite hockey team. It's got the potential to be really compelling theatre.

I'd be faaaaaaaar more stoked to learn we acquired JJ Peterka than Marco Rossi. I could end up wrong, but I dont mind going on record with that, amongst rumored players. Thought I doubt we get either.

A lower-case player I would be amped on would be Jack Quinn.

 

[Canucks LB]

they wanted drew fortescue who is a totally vanilla prospect who'll probably top out as an ahl guy or depth nhl guy

i haven't watched mancini closely but his on ice results in the nhl were atrocious both in new york and vancouver. he's got all the physical tools but he has a long way to go to be a legitimate nhl defender

Well in the AHL that’s changed drastically.
He has easily been the best defender not just for abby, but arguably the entire AHL playoffs.

There is something more there, needs refinement

 

[Kill Vector]

I really dont care how you feel

I know.

 

[racerjoe]

the same people that will make excuses like 'aqualini would never allow a rebuild' and 'you can't rebuild a roster with elite talent like quinn hughes/the sedins on it' throwing shade at trevor linden for backing a gm and their plan to retool

I had no problem with retooling when Linden and Benning first took over. It was when they failed to do that after the first season, that a rebuild was needed. It was clear to most that the reason the retool worked wasn't anything Benning did but the bounce back (that should have been predictable) of the teams vets.

It was not just a bad plan, but terrible execution. Draft day blunders, trade deadline blunders and Free agent blunders.

 

[arttk]

Well in the AHL that’s changed drastically.
He has easily been the best defender not just for abby, but arguably the entire AHL playoffs.

There is something more there, needs refinement

the power of good development

 

[nowhereman]

You know what, as someone who watched the Sedins for their entire careers, and watched for 6 years before they started, we didn't give them good enough support in their careers.

They were like having the Russian 5 in just two players, but instead of building around that and creating a double cup winner, we had them keep afloat a couple number 2 and 3 D men, and mediocre forward support for much of their careers.

When we gave them elite support, they gave us a top 10 in the last 20 or so years regular season and near Stanley cup, not to mention 2 Presidents trophies, 2 Art Rosses, and a Hart.

All of that to say, I know it failed, but IF the Sedins strongly felt they wanted to be supported in going out competitively, I wouldn't begrudge them or the direction even though it didn't work. I felt we owed them that for what they wove into the fabric of what it means to be a Canuck.

But the execution was horrendous and from the rumors that leaked, it seemed like they wouldn't have minded a rebuild if it was done at the right time in 2016.

The Sedins had very strong/elite support for most of their career. When they first came into the league, they had superstars in Naslund and Bertuzzi to go along with two top-pairing defensemen in Ohlund and Jovanovski. They weren't expected to carry the load in Vancouver at that time and, to their discredit, they took longer than most top picks to hit their stride. Once they did, the organization brought in a HHOF goaltender, elite two-way Selke winner, one of the best defense cores in the league and strong offensive depth (in a cap system). In the late 2010s, the team was on the downswing but so were the Sedins. Before that, from 00-01 to 15-16, the Canucks were the third most successful regular season team in the league. That doesn't happen on the backs of two players who have no support.

As great as the Sedins were, I think you're overrating them. They had a handful of elite seasons but nothing impressive enough to be top 200 players of all time. They played a huge part in the Canucks success but also have to own some of their failures. I'd say guys like Price and Nash fit the bill more as stars who had nothing to work with.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Meh. The Sedins peak years were between 2006 and 2012. They begun a gradual decline in early 2013 and their EV play cratered in 2015. They were still first liners but the franchise definitely needed a fresh injection of offensive talent (Carter) between 2012-2015.

The Sedins were f***ed between 2006-2008. There was zero offensive support in the early AV years and it was just a matter of timing and a general reluctance by Nonis to mortgage the future which was maybe the right call. You always wonder what could have been had Burrows and Kesler developed into top 6 players 2 years sooner and the Canucks managed to get a UFA like Hossa.

We are kind of in a similar pickle now with medicore pieces up front. You really hope Raty, Lekkerimaki and Karlsson evolve into key pieces for us.

 

[Nucky]

I’m ready to jump if Zacha is brought in as the solution

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

The Sedins had very strong/elite support for most of their career. When they first came into the league, they had superstars in Naslund and Bertuzzi to go along with two top-pairing defensemen in Ohlund and Jovanovski. They weren't expected to carry the load in Vancouver at that time and, to their discredit, they took longer than most top picks to hit their stride. Once they did, the organization brought in a HHOF goaltender, elite two-way Selke winner, one of the best defense cores in the league and strong offensive depth (in a cap system). In the late 2010s, the team was on the downswing but so were the Sedins. Before that, from 00-01 to 15-16, the Canucks were the third most successful regular season team in the league. That doesn't happen on the backs of two players who have no support.

As great as the Sedins were, I think you're overrating them. They had a handful of elite seasons but nothing impressive enough to be top 200 players of all time. They played a huge part in the Canucks success but also have to own some of their failures. I'd say guys like Price and Nash fit the bill more as stars who had nothing to work with.

The thing is, I think the uniqueness of the Sedins' possession style papered over a lot of flaws the teams behind them had.

I mean, from 09-12 they had a strong supporting core.

But their breakout began in 05-06 as Nazzy and Bertuzzi were crumbling. Then 07 they had Luongo and a solid D and basically nothing else.

From then until 08 they had to try to turn Pyatt and Bernier into top liners.

They were often played with our shitty 3 D pairing in order to protect them from being exposed.

Then from 2012-2018 they really weren't given much to play with.

I also think that Rick Nash doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same paragraph let alone sentence.

And I would argue they are definitely top 200 NHL players. Not that you need to be exhaustive, but give me 5 or 10 players you think aren't in the top 100 but ARE in the top 200 who are better than the Sedins?

 

[arttk]

I’m ready to jump if Zacha is brought in as the solution

totally fine if he doesn't cost a lot and is bought in as a 3C guy that can play some 2C minutes.

 

[Nucky]

totally fine if he doesn't cost a lot and is bought in as a 3C guy that can play some 2C minutes.

Depends on the cost, you’re gonna pay a Pastrnak tax on him

 

[Hodgy]

I'd probably rather roll the dice on Zegras than Zacha. Canucks need game breaking skill and I think Zacha, while much safer, won't really add much. Zegras would be a real boom/bust target, but at least he has the potential to provide something that the Canucks are in dire need of. And frankly, we are going to have to need to hit a home run or two to get this core back on the track, and acquiring a guy like Zacha just isn't going to be that.

 

[ephmrl]

I'd probably rather roll the dice on Zegras than Zacha. Canucks need game breaking skill and I think Zacha, while much safer, won't really add much. Zegras would be a real boom/bust target, but at least he has the potential to provide something that the Canucks are in dire need of. And frankly, we are going to have to need to hit a home run or two to get this core back on the track, and acquiring a guy like Zacha just isn't going to be that.

I'd roll the dice on Zegras, but he'll need to move to the wing. Terrible at faceoffs and awful defensively.

 

[Hodgy]

I'd roll the dice on Zegras, but he'll need to move to the wing. Terrible at faceoffs and awful defensively.

Ya, I agree. He's unlikely a solution at centre.

 

[nowhereman]

The thing is, I think the uniqueness of the Sedins' possession style papered over a lot of flaws the teams behind them had.

I mean, from 09-12 they had a strong supporting core.

But their breakout began in 05-06 as Nazzy and Bertuzzi were crumbling. Then 07 they had Luongo and a solid D and basically nothing else.

From then until 08 they had to try to turn Pyatt and Bernier into top liners.

They were often played with our shitty 3 D pairing in order to protect them from being exposed.

Then from 2012-2018 they really weren't given much to play with.

I also think that Rick Nash doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same paragraph let alone sentence.

And I would argue they are definitely top 200 NHL players. Not that you need to be exhaustive, but give me 5 or 10 players you think aren't in the top 100 but ARE in the top 200 who are better than the Sedins?

Even as you walk through each period of time, that's pretty decent support. I don't think the team actively held them back until their mid-30s and, even then, they were also slowing down themselves. Yes, it did take them a while to find a linemate in Burrows but there were still two of them on the same line, which is more than a lot of stars have. In the cap era, it is very rare to have three elite players on the same line. Crosby played with Kunitz/Dupuis throughout his prime, Malkin was saddled with even worse linemates (and won a Smythe playing with Fedetenko), Datysuk was attached at the hip with Abdelkader and Kane played more often with guys like Kruger, Bolland and Anisimov than Toews.

The Rick Nash comparison was just to bring up a player who was truly on an island with no support. Iginla is probably a better comparison. His best centers, pre-Crosby, were Craig Conroy and Langkow.

And Iginla is a player I'd bring up that qualifies as a guy likely outside the top 100 that's in the top 200 but better than the Sedins. Off the top of my head, it would be guys like Kopitar, Karlsson, Stastny, Perreault, Kariya, Modano, Bucyk, Bure, Datsyuk, Leetch, Hawerchuk, Doughty, Zetterberg, Keon, Stamkos, Recchi, Savard, Bergeron, Sundin, Gilmour, Francis, Oates, St. Louis, etc. That said, I don't think the Sedins would be out of place in a top 200 but they're certainly not locks.

At the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned, they had a pretty decent environment for success. Was it optimal? No but only a few players get lucky enough to find themselves on a late-90s/00s Detroit or Habs dynasty. But they enjoyed a lot of winning in the regular season and came damn close to a Cup. You could do a hell of a lot worse (just ask a guy like Marcel Dionne) and most players really only get a few windows where their team is a contender. I also wouldn't have begrudged them if they went Cup-chasing in their later years but it would have been because the team was past it's best before date, not because the Canucks did them wrong.

 

[credulous]

I'd probably rather roll the dice on Zegras than Zacha. Canucks need game breaking skill and I think Zacha, while much safer, won't really add much. Zegras would be a real boom/bust target, but at least he has the potential to provide something that the Canucks are in dire need of. And frankly, we are going to have to need to hit a home run or two to get this core back on the track, and acquiring a guy like Zacha just isn't going to be that.

i dunno how much i think zegras can still be a top line forward in the league but i like gambling he could be more than aquiring a guy we know can't be in zacha. if they can get a top line forward and a good but maybe not ideal 2c then sure pick up zacha to shore things up. if they're banking on zacha being the best piece you pick up this summer though then...

 

[I am toxic]

If Canucks get Jack Quinn, and somehow land Jack Hughes, I will poop my pants

Hughes walks the line, over to Pettersson, back to Pettersson, over to Hughes, drops for Hughes, back over to Quinn, to Pettersson, pass back to Hughes, fakes the shot and dishes to Quinn, into the corner for Quinn, back to Pettersson aaaaand time runs out

 

[F A N]

Yeah it’s a principle because actions > words. So is there a guy that was gifted a spot? We signed Joshua to play on the 4th line, he was paid 825K and he had to earn a job out of camp. Note that we have a bunch of guys like that playing for a roster spot like PDG. The notion we didn’t sign guys to block Joshua is laughable.

Actions are bigger than words but how do you know that Rutherford/Allvin didn't say to a UFA like Kuzmenko and Joshua that they are guaranteed a roster spot? Who did the Canucks sign that summer to block Joshua? PDG and Joshua was signed on the same day. PDG got a 1x$750K contract that pays him $450K in the minors. Joshua got a one-way 2x825K contract with $50K signing bonus to boot. Joshua has also never been waived while PDG has cleared waivers many times. Who do you think is going to get every opportunity to make the roster?

You keep being fixated on who was gifted a spot. I can't think of any because the relevant signings all played well enough to make the team. Like Kuzmenko was stapled alongside Petey from the start and obviously played well. Do you not understand when I say it was his roster spot to lose? And if you think we signed guys to block Joshua then did he have such a strong preseason in Sept/Oct 2022 that he legit won a spot?

Now to be clear, Joshua was a relatively safe calculated risk given the players we have on the team/ in the system but there was a risk as Joshua has never been a full time NHL player previously.

Using PDG is the perfect example, nobody was happy with that and the only reason it happened was because we lacked depth. He got hot for like 10 games and it worked then it sucked and we did not have the depth and most importantly cap to have a proper replacement. I don’t think anyone looked at that situation and said anything but yeah that’s a 4th line dude playing on the 1st line. Which is exactly my point with POD except it’s on steroids because it’s f***ing Draisaitl and not Miller and Draisaitl >>> Miller.

Actually I recall the narrative being that PDG was a great fit alongside Miller and Boeser and there was no better option. That does usually happen when the team is winning and the line is productive which that Miller line was for most of the season and similarly Drai was deemed best with Pods given gthe options. I don't believe there was any point after the start of last season where there were calls for PDG to be scratched from the lineup or sent to the minors. We were quite happy with what PDG provided IIRC. Similarly, do you see calls for Podkolzin to be scratched or sent to the minors?

Hyman’s main linemate is McD and yes he struggled for like half a season, but he also put up 50 goals last season so with a track record like that people are more forgiving.

This is my point. You're pointing to Pods' 24 points but the 50 goal scoring Hyman had 44 alongside McD. So your argument fails.

Putting up 24 pts along side the 2 best player in the game is a stretch of the word, effective.

Seriously? Do you not understand that Podkolzin did not play on the same line as Drai and McD for most of the season? That's like saying Forbort should have more than 11 points playing "along side" Quinn Hughes.

Tocchet kept on saying Pod needs to be reckless and guess what, he was anything but that playing for us because the pressure of needing to earn a spot was too much for him.

Yes the then 22 year old needed to find a way to be a better player in the NHL. If AV was his coach he might have said he didn't get it yet.

Like I get it, I wished it worked out here but the pressure of being a 10OA was too much for him here. Tocchet wasn’t going to gift him a spot, we’ve seen how he treat younger guys, look at Hog. He said he was the best conditioned guy at camp and a couple mistakes he was benched hard. If Pod played the way he did in the preseason, there was no way Tocchet would keep him on the roster over the other guys and he would’ve been waived.

Except Pods is superior to Hogs defensively which is the cause of Hoglander's benching and Pods came in even faster this season. You're completely ignoring the fact that Pods is faster and more physical than most of the contenders and improved defensively. If Knoblauch can get Pods to play like he has this season I'm sure Tocchet can too.

If the stats don't lie then Podkolzin has gotten faster this season and is significantly improved defensively. Doesn't that sound like a player Tocchet would play?

Anyway I am done with this convo, it’s really not worth continuing. we have very different view points on this

Yes your view isn't well supported.

 

[racerjoe]

I think the idea was signing guys who at the time knew we had space for them on the NHL roster. They would still need to earn it, but the spot was there for the taking if they performed. They were not blocked by anyone.

Just like now, I think that will be something we say to FA that we have chances for them in the top 6. Like Ehlers, one of his big things is not getting top 6 minutes. Not that we will sign him, just an example.

 

[F A N]

I think the idea was signing guys who at the time knew we had space for them on the NHL roster. They would still need to earn it, but the spot was there for the taking if they performed. They were not blocked by anyone.

I don't think we're fundamentally saying different things. It's what we would describe as "pencil in" or "his job to lose" and that the team has "made room for him." Like D-Petey still needs to "earn" a spot at training camp but unless management signs a guy that blocks him it's his job to lose. It's like an incumbent holding the tiebreaker and where you need an outright win to take his place. But that's different from being "gifted" a spot. Similarly, DeBrusk was 100% guaranteed to get every opportunity to play in the top 6 with his contract.

I think it's implied that a roster spot isn't guaranteed if the player proves completely incompetent at the NHL level.

Just like now, I think that will be something we say to FA that we have chances for them in the top 6. Like Ehlers, one of his big things is not getting top 6 minutes. Not that we will sign him, just an example.

I think firstly there's a difference between guaranteeing a roster spot and guaranteeing ice time/role. But the same principles still apply. "Keeping your word" really just means giving the player a legitimate chance. But ya, ultimately when it comes to sought after UFAs you're selling them on the opportunity and the role you envision them playing. The contract the team offers can help evaluate the team's seriousness.

Ehlers is an interesting case. I don't follow the Jets but it seems that even when he was playing on the 3rd line he's playing with good players. It's like Lindholm was playing "3C" here, but he was flanked by the team's best wingers last season (aside from Boeser and occasionally Hoglander).