Management Thread Blurst of Times

[F A N]

Oh I notice you left out Drai... wonder why...

Because he has been playing with Drai duh.

Like any of our AHL Tweeners that were called up this year... If they played with Drai do you think they would have put up the same numbers?

I don't think they would have. Case in point, PDG spent most of his time with Miller, Boeser, Hughes, and Hronek last season. He had 5 goals 10 points in 51 games.

What did we expect from Sherwood? Nothing much aside from hits and playing responsibly. i think most of us assumed he would just be a a really good 4th line guy that can play to a very specific role.

Yes and if we had Pod, then we would need to send another player to waivers. If you look at the opening lineup, who the hell is Pod going to beat? That’s the issue right? Management and coaching don’t have enough confidence that Pod can actually overcome his confidence issues.

First off, you don't have to sign Sprong. Many here thought he was a poor fit under Tocchet's system and he was. Second of all, Raty wasn't expected to make the roster and he was waivers exempt. I think most of us would have thought Pods was ahead on the depth chart. There were a lot of posters here who like Aman but not me. He was waived and cleared waivers after playing in 4 games. We didn't have to sign Heinen but management probably prioritized him over Sherwood so there's that.

Regardless, there was room and injuries happen. Raty played 33 games, Sasson 29, Karlsson 23, Lekkerimaki 24, Aman 19, and Bains 13.

The only way to keep Pod is to gift him a lineup spot and i don’t think you would ever want to do that. We are going to waive a more deserving player because this guy has confidence issues and needs his spot guaranteed?

I think it was Gillis who said that the goal isn't to put together the best team at the beginning of the season but the best team at the end of the season. I hate sending down a player who clearly won a spot at training camp but at the end of the day I would gift a spot to a player who would be the better player at the end of the season especially if there are waiver considerations.

At some point the team should find a way to integrate young players into the lineup. Not every player is going to step right in and star. Take Bo Horvat. Could the team have signed a veteran player who would have beat him out at camp? Of course. But there was a huge difference between Horvat at the start of his rookie year and at the start of the playoffs.

At the end of the day there has to be a balance. You can't believe that a player 100% needs to earn his opportunities while at the same time believe that a player needs to be put into a position to succeed. It doesn't always line up. Bertuzzi and Jokinen would have never become the star players they became without Mike Keenan and they both acknowledge that. Or take McCann, Players and coaches talk about confidence all the time and yet we dismiss the need to put a talented player in a position where they can gain some confidence and start excelling.

 

[racerjoe]

Just curious: With the roster they started the season with, can you list the players who were considered as good or better that Podkolzin? (Both in an absolute sense and in terms of value)

Caveat: They had to pay to jettison Heinen and gave Sprong away after 10~ games.

Honestly only Sprong i wouldn't take, and we took a flier on him. Heinen finished the season with more pts than Pods... without playing with dria. This isn't to mention the guys in the AHL.

 

[Bleach Clean]

What's with these Jake Tapper-like revelations?

Summer 2022 (before the Canucks traded Horvat) multiple reporters and "insiders" all say that the teams were interested in Myers. Friedman reported that the Canucks had set a price on Myers and will speak to teams if they're willing to pay the price. I don't think anybody can genuinely interpret these reports as saying the Canucks couldn't dump Myers' contract (or the bulk of it).

Dhaliwal tweeted Friedman's reporting in October 2022 that Horvat's comparable was Couturier (i.e. $7.7M a year). The Canucks' last offer to Horvat was reported to be 7x$7.5M. When the last contract was rejected, Dhaliwal declared that the Canucks can't sign another $8M player. The Canucks initially tried to sign Horvat to a RNH-like deal.

We've had threads upon threads of discussions here. I don't recall anybody here saying we should pay Miller and Horvat $8M AAV and extend Petey. I don't recall there being too many posters here who thought Horvat was worth 8x$8M. Most of the discussions envisioned an either or scenario + Petey.

Keeping all of Miller, Horvat and Pettersson was probably a minority opinion here, but that doesn't mean much. Here's what I said October 22, 2022:

1. Keep Miller (he's staying anyway) and OEL (little choice) until the cap rises. Their salaries will become more palatable as we move forward.
2. Re-sign Horvat and run with a 3 centre rotation. This team's only comparative advantage is their centre depth and goaltender.

Post in thread 'Fantasy GM Thread | Drop the Puck Edition'

Oct 22, 2022

I'd be hesitant to move on from Hoglander both because I believe in his upside and also because I think we need cost-effective players like him, and I like what Garland brings to the team but management / coaching don't seem to like either of these guys. Hoglander we'd probably be selling low on, Garland I think will get fair value, but yeah, these would be the most likely to go if we can find a deal that makes sense, a RHD would be nice of course but if not then a 3C that allows us to move Horvat up to the wing.

Would still leave room for someone like Boeser to be moved for a RHD, or...

• Bleach Clean

• 

The Canucks botched the Horvat negotiations on multiple fronts. Everything from not meeting his number in the offseason to not cementing the OEL buyout plan early on. They were late to everything and their final number still chased his current production at that time.

Last, Myers was not good value on his $6m AAV deal in a flat cap environment. He was a cap dump candidate. Here's a quick quip from the Hockey Writers from that time: The Canucks would likely have to give up a draft pick in the first three or four rounds in a trade involving Myers.

With what he know now, it's not a good look for management imo.

 

[F A N]

Keeping all of Miller, Horvat and Pettersson was probably a minority opinion here, but that doesn't mean much. Here's what I said October 22, 2022:

1. Keep Miller (he's staying anyway) and OEL (little choice) until the cap rises. Their salaries will become more palatable as we move forward.
2. Re-sign Horvat and run with a 3 centre rotation. This team's only comparative advantage is their centre depth and goaltender.

Post in thread 'Fantasy GM Thread | Drop the Puck Edition'

Oct 22, 2022

I'd be hesitant to move on from Hoglander both because I believe in his upside and also because I think we need cost-effective players like him, and I like what Garland brings to the team but management / coaching don't seem to like either of these guys. Hoglander we'd probably be selling low on, Garland I think will get fair value, but yeah, these would be the most likely to go if we can find a deal that makes sense, a RHD would be nice of course but if not then a 3C that allows us to move Horvat up to the wing.

Would still leave room for someone like Boeser to be moved for a RHD, or...

• Bleach Clean

• 

The Canucks botched the Horvat negotiations on multiple fronts. Everything from not meeting his number in the offseason to not cementing the OEL buyout plan early on. They were late to everything and their final number still chased his current production at that time.

Right and that's fair. But I think there was a real need for a RHD that was only alleviated through the Hronek trade.

Last, Myers was not good value on his $6m AAV deal in a flat cap environment. He was a cap dump candidate. Here's a quick quip from the Hockey Writers from that time: The Canucks would likely have to give up a draft pick in the first three or four rounds in a trade involving Myers.

With what he know now, it's not a good look for management imo.

There was a time when the perception was that we needed to move assets to get rid of Myers' contract. In the 2022 offseason, Friedman said "Vancouver has a price, if you are willing to pay that, they will talk to you". This was quoted by Dhaliwal suggesting that he hasn't heard anything different. Seravalli said there was a genuine market for Myers. Sat spoke before that offseason speculating that Myers' contract was more movable than anyone could have imagined. I think every report at the time suggested that Myers had become an asset that teams would be interested in by the time the 2022 NHL trade deadline came around.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Right and that's fair. But I think there was a real need for a RHD that was only alleviated through the Hronek trade.

There was a time when the perception was that we needed to move assets to get rid of Myers' contract. In the 2022 offseason, Friedman said "Vancouver has a price, if you are willing to pay that, they will talk to you". This was quoted by Dhaliwal suggesting that he hasn't heard anything different. Seravalli said there was a genuine market for Myers. Sat spoke before that offseason speculating that Myers' contract was more movable than anyone could have imagined. I think every report at the time suggested that Myers had become an asset that teams would be interested in by the time the 2022 NHL trade deadline came around.

Myers was overpaid. Even this Canucks Army article that said he was no longer untradeable, said he was still overpaid for what he contributed: Sure, he may still be overpaid, but... Tyler Myers has played himself into tradeability, but can the Canucks afford to trade him?

Base point was that they were exploring a Myers move. He could have been dealt to create room for the Hronek upgrade. Which in fact did not require the Horvat move to execute. There was also a Garland trade request rumour making the rounds.

To sum, they could have created the cap and had the futures to keep Horvat. The trade offs between Miller/Horvat or Horvat/Hronek were not necessary.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Honestly only Sprong i wouldn't take, and we took a flier on him. Heinen finished the season with more pts than Pods... without playing with dria. This isn't to mention the guys in the AHL.

Heinen is better than Pods, but was also a cap dump they had to pay to get away from...

From the opening day roster, I find a spot for Podkolzin over Sprong, Aman or Raty. Those are the bottom end guys that made it, but were also moved or sent down early. Therefore, I see the Pods trade as a wasted action that didn't need to happen. He doesn't need to be a world beater for that to be true either. He just needed to be at the level or better than the 3-4 bottom end players of the opening day roster.

 

[racerjoe]

Heinen is better than Pods, but was also a cap dump they had to pay to get away from...

From the opening day roster, I find a spot for Podkolzin over Sprong, Aman or Raty. Those are the bottom end guys that made it, but were also moved or sent down early. Therefore, I see the Pods trade as a wasted action that didn't need to happen. He doesn't need to be a world beater for that to be true either. He just needed to be at the level or better than the 3-4 bottom end players of the opening day roster.

Raty put up the same pt pace as Pods... but again without Drai and in worse minutes and has certain utility. I am shocked, but Aman also put up the same pace, and he was an offensive black hole, and again more utility.

So think about that for a second... a guy that was better is also a cap dump... vs we were able to trade the worse player and get assets.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Raty put up the same pt pace as Pods... but again without Drai and in worse minutes and has certain utility. I am shocked, but Aman also put up the same pace, and he was an offensive black hole, and again more utility.

So think about that for a second... a guy that was better is also a cap dump... vs we were able to trade the worse player and get assets.

Heinen was a cap dump due to the contract he was given. Podkolzin didn't have that problem.

Raty was sent down due to footspeed (waiver ineligible). Aman was sent down due to lack of engagement. Sprong was traded for lack of defense. Podkolzin didn't have any of those issues. He could keep up with the play, forecheck, and defend. Big body. Points were scarce, but they didn't need him to produce anything more than 4th line numbers.

If you reason it out, it's a miscalculation... Even on the low end of things.

 

[racerjoe]

Heinen was a cap dump due to the contract he was given. Podkolzin didn't have that problem.

Raty was sent down due to footspeed (waiver ineligible). Aman was sent down due to lack of engagement. Sprong was traded for lack of defense. Podkolzin didn't have any of those issues. He could keep up with the play, forecheck, and defend. Big body. Points were scarce, but they didn't need him to produce anything more than 4th line numbers.

If you reason it out, it's a miscalculation... Even on the low end of things.

I think it was the second year more than anything, and he wasn't a good fit for us.

Those players were still better and had more room to grow, and more utility.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I think it was the second year more than anything, and he wasn't a good fit for us.

Those players were still better and had more room to grow, and more utility.

None of those players were better overall at that point in time. Raty and Aman got sent down. Sprong traded. Podkolzin played on an NHL roster from then onward. All 82 games primarily due to his utility outside of scoring.

 

[racerjoe]

None of those players were better overall at that point in time. Raty and Aman got sent down. Sprong traded. Podkolzin played on an NHL roster from then onward. All 82 games primarily due to his utility outside of scoring.

Or cause they didn't have better players...

 

[Bleach Clean]

Or cause they didn't have better players...

What's more likely given that they're in the cup finals again?

There are strong arguments that VAN didn't have 13-14 equivalent or better forwards at the start of the season. I've seen them dismissed here out of turn. That's a mistake, imo.

 

[racerjoe]

What's more likely given that they're in the cup finals again?

There are strong arguments that VAN didn't have 13-14 equivalent or better forwards at the start of the season. I've seen them dismissed here out of turn. That's a mistake, imo.

Thats very flawed logic. When one team has Drai and McD

 

[Bleach Clean]

Thats very flawed logic. When one team has Drai and McD

Having Draisaitl and McDavid doesn't mean they can't also have better forward depth too.

Anyway, people are right to question the cognitive dissonance re: Podkolzin. I'm not even bullish on the player, but I can see he had a place here.

 

[arttk]

Because he has been playing with Drai duh.


I don't think they would have. Case in point, PDG spent most of his time with Miller, Boeser, Hughes, and Hronek last season. He had 5 goals 10 points in 51 games.





First off, you don't have to sign Sprong. Many here thought he was a poor fit under Tocchet's system and he was. Second of all, Raty wasn't expected to make the roster and he was waivers exempt. I think most of us would have thought Pods was ahead on the depth chart. There were a lot of posters here who like Aman but not me. He was waived and cleared waivers after playing in 4 games. We didn't have to sign Heinen but management probably prioritized him over Sherwood so there's that.

Regardless, there was room and injuries happen. Raty played 33 games, Sasson 29, Karlsson 23, Lekkerimaki 24, Aman 19, and Bains 13.


I think it was Gillis who said that the goal isn't to put together the best team at the beginning of the season but the best team at the end of the season. I hate sending down a player who clearly won a spot at training camp but at the end of the day I would gift a spot to a player who would be the better player at the end of the season especially if there are waiver considerations.

At some point the team should find a way to integrate young players into the lineup. Not every player is going to step right in and star. Take Bo Horvat. Could the team have signed a veteran player who would have beat him out at camp? Of course. But there was a huge difference between Horvat at the start of his rookie year and at the start of the playoffs.

At the end of the day there has to be a balance. You can't believe that a player 100% needs to earn his opportunities while at the same time believe that a player needs to be put into a position to succeed. It doesn't always line up. Bertuzzi and Jokinen would have never become the star players they became without Mike Keenan and they both acknowledge that. Or take McCann, Players and coaches talk about confidence all the time and yet we dismiss the need to put a talented player in a position where they can gain some confidence and start excelling.

Well I think if they don’t sign Sprong they would’ve signed someone else. I think not gifting young players a roster spot is a principle they have.
Gillis also waive Grabner when he didn’t play well at training camp…. The odds of Pod getting waived at training camp is pretty damn high. I mean he scored 24 pts playing with McD and Draisaitl as his main line mates. It’s really hard to argue that well if we kept him he would’ve produced and not be waived…