Reverend Mayhem
Lowly Serf/Reluctant Cuckold
Not wrong. It's just...do we want to keep Clarke Mac? Basically. I'd keep him. But I'm an idiot. I'd keep Pius over Garly.
Management Thread Blurst of Times
- Thread starter Vector
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Not wrong. It's just...do we want to keep Clarke Mac? Basically. I'd keep him. But I'm an idiot. I'd keep Pius over Garly.
of course you keep them. they're good players! you're not winning a cup with chris higgins and clarke macarthur as your top two wings though
like i said, even if you look at super recent times, like last year. Florida had only 4 guys above 41 points with the 5th guy at 41 points and that was the cup winner. So whatever you imagine is unrealistic across whatever era.
Reverend Mayhem
Lowly Serf/Reluctant Cuckold
I'd say, you want your C's to be really f***ing skilled and have your wingers be great ditch-diggers, to borrow a phrase. Clarke and Chris were excellent ditch-diggers. My apologies to @HiggsBroson I loved Higgins as a hockey player.
Reverend Mayhem
Lowly Serf/Reluctant Cuckold
they had reinhart, tkachuk and barkov all over a point a game with verhaeghe just missing (72 in 76). they also had tarasenko who underperformed in the playoffs but had 14 points in 19 games in the regular season for them
if i give you pettersson is about equal to barkov that means you think the canucks can add a reinhart, a tkachuk and a verhaeghe over the next 2 seasons?
sting101
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The biggest issue is the truly elite have a trio of top players and with Miller gone and presumably Boeser next we will be down to 1 who has been a disaster for the last 2 seasons
The rest really is a difference between sneaking into the playoffs vs 25th
The rest really is a difference between sneaking into the playoffs vs 25th
i don't think we can nor do i think we need to. 2 seasons feels like an arbitrary timeline, why two? If we can extend Hughes to 8 years, that is our timeline.
I've said this over and over, the lif cycle of any cup winner is be shit (rebuild) - bubble - WC - playoff lock - contender.
I believe we are at the WC stage ( we are bubble when almost everyone is injured ). The goal for next season is to be a playoff lock team and I believe we just need like 2-3 top6 guys (50pt+) player to get there. Once we get there then the next steps is to figure out what else do we need to get to the contender stage which would require us to get like 2 more PPG guys.
it makes zero sense to me for you guys to come up with completely arbitrary timelines (2 years) when the timeline should be tied to something that is actually real.
sting101
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also love the part that you are using Reinhart, Verhaeghe as an example of how hard it is to get those guys.
If you go back 4-5 years, it's not like florida had a clear path to be a contender.
Florida signed Verhaeghe at min wage and nobody expected him to be a 70pt + player.
Florida traded for Reinhart when folks thought he had flatlined in Buffalo.
The fact you don't see a clear path doesn't mean there is no path nor the path is exceptionally difficult. The reality is every contending team needs to make bets on guys who are not obvious and then see which ones hit.
i never said it was impossible or even unlikely. i thought your position was that the canucks are going to be back to being a very good team with a chance of being a contender in 1-2 seasons. if your argument is they're going to be a fringe playoff team for a few seasons and maybe in 3-4 seasons they'll be a contender again then yeah sure that could happen and i pretty much agree with you. any nhl team could be a contender 3-4 seasons from now. i do disagree that teams get better in a linear fashion like you seem to think though. i think most teams go from mediocre or bad to being a contender because it usually happens when something like hitting on verhaeghe, reinhart and pulling off a trade for tkachuk happens over 2 years. it's not because they slowly add pieces without ever losing anything
sting101
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Part of the issue is Vancouver has not exactly set itself up as a destination team with so much turmoil.
No matter what anyone wants to think regarding Miller and Pettersson there is a lingering stink here with the top of the lineup and Boeser and others potentially walking soon. Does anyone wanting to win a cup want to come join EP40 after the last 2 seasons?
Then add a rising salary cap where it will be more difficult to not only get players who price themselves out in other markets but where more dollars get taken from top players bottom lines in a poor tax situation.
Already cannot compete at getting Canadian born players near UFA as a new lawsuit has made off setting with a "home address in the US" for bonuses no longer a thing (at least until the Tavares lawsuit provides more clarity)
This is not 2018-2023 where you can get Toffoli's on a cheap 4 yr deal in free agency or players like Miller squeezed out off a top team. Even improving on Suter and Boeser will be a challenge
No matter what anyone wants to think regarding Miller and Pettersson there is a lingering stink here with the top of the lineup and Boeser and others potentially walking soon. Does anyone wanting to win a cup want to come join EP40 after the last 2 seasons?
Then add a rising salary cap where it will be more difficult to not only get players who price themselves out in other markets but where more dollars get taken from top players bottom lines in a poor tax situation.
Already cannot compete at getting Canadian born players near UFA as a new lawsuit has made off setting with a "home address in the US" for bonuses no longer a thing (at least until the Tavares lawsuit provides more clarity)
This is not 2018-2023 where you can get Toffoli's on a cheap 4 yr deal in free agency or players like Miller squeezed out off a top team. Even improving on Suter and Boeser will be a challenge
No closer to a cup than we were 10 years ago. No prospect depth, lack of star talent, zero movement at the deadline, huge question marks, buyouts eating up cap and watched ourselves get fleeced in a big trade once again.
Top 3 power forward in the game, 103 point season and he gets traded for a #4 defenceman(1st round pick) a depth defenceman and a player who inevitably will have to retire soon due to concussions. This is literally a fireable offence
Complete disaster
Top 3 power forward in the game, 103 point season and he gets traded for a #4 defenceman(1st round pick) a depth defenceman and a player who inevitably will have to retire soon due to concussions. This is literally a fireable offence
Complete disaster
Every team is built differently. I think you need at least 2 elite level players up front (at least one at C) and then get top line production from a couple of others + other depth pieces.
It is an important discussion but I find it interesting that some of the same people dismissing Boeser's importance are the same people questioning how we are going to acquire the elite players necessary to win. Obviously we need Petey to be that 100 point #1 C. That solves a lot of problems. We need to find a 2C to replace Miller. We don't need an elite 2C if we have a top line producer on his wing.
I think we can have players like Debrusk playing on our top 6 but we need to have one guy who is capable of scoring 30-40 goals. Boeser scored 40 in the regular season and 7 in 12 playoff games last season. Who cares if he isn't a play driver. You can't just plug a a player into his position an expect that player to put up similar numbers. It just doesn't work that way. Of course with Boeser the question is whether he can sustain his productivity especially when he no longer has Miller but at the same time, you don't get rid of a piece you think you can win with just because you currently don't have a C to maximize his abilities. Otherwise we'll keep trying to plug big holes every season instead of building towards contention.
It is an important discussion but I find it interesting that some of the same people dismissing Boeser's importance are the same people questioning how we are going to acquire the elite players necessary to win. Obviously we need Petey to be that 100 point #1 C. That solves a lot of problems. We need to find a 2C to replace Miller. We don't need an elite 2C if we have a top line producer on his wing.
I think we can have players like Debrusk playing on our top 6 but we need to have one guy who is capable of scoring 30-40 goals. Boeser scored 40 in the regular season and 7 in 12 playoff games last season. Who cares if he isn't a play driver. You can't just plug a a player into his position an expect that player to put up similar numbers. It just doesn't work that way. Of course with Boeser the question is whether he can sustain his productivity especially when he no longer has Miller but at the same time, you don't get rid of a piece you think you can win with just because you currently don't have a C to maximize his abilities. Otherwise we'll keep trying to plug big holes every season instead of building towards contention.
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Bourne Endeavor
Registered User
You make it sound like they were just idiots who randomly decided to trade Miller for no reason.
Not only was their the near constant drama surrounding him, but he outright refused to waive his NMC. Supposedly, we had a deal with both Carolina and Colorado that he said "nope." Now you could argue keeping him over Pettersson would have been the better choice, but that's just a massive a gamble.
You realize that I am not advocating for the Canucks to go into a big rebuild right now? The dye has been cast and it would be foolish not to try to compete unless and until Hughes decides he doesn't want to re-sign here.
They had TANKED for Crosby. They finished dead last in the last season before Crosby's draft. Sure, they got luck with the lottery, but they absolutely were tanking.
And I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Pittsburgh is 100% a great example of how tanking can work.
But you seem to be dead set on strawmanning my positions as being "tanking 100% works" or something dumb like that. I am not arguing that. My argument is that you are more likely to win a Stanley Cup if you tank vs. if you don't, and history very clear shows this is true.
Who are you arguing with? When have I ever said that tanking guaranteed you'd win a Stanley Cup, or once you tank, that you don't need good management after or to add other players? Its like you are not even reading my posts. I have already said that the most important part of the process is good management. Tanking has been a condition precedent to many Stanley Cup winners, but again, you need more than this. You also need good to great management.
Again, you are just off on some tangent and not actually reading or addressing my posts. I never advocated for the Canucks to tank right now. I replied to a post where I agree with the OP, and went into more detail about ownership and management are not interested in a big rebuild.
Again, you seem to be hellbent on just yelling at the clouds. I am not arguing that the Canucks should tank right now.
we were a very good team last season and then shit happened, specifically around Miller. that's life right? shit happens and then you adjust. how the f*** am I or anyone to project Miller going nuclear in the room and beef with his teammates and his coach?
No my argument is not they are going to be a fringe playoff team in a few season, I have never said that. I said we are already wild card team that happened to be a bubble team due to immense amount of injuries. What part of that points to the idea that WE WILL BE a fringe playoff team in a few season? Don't distort or misinterpret what i've said.
I don't think any NHL team can be a contender 3-4 seasons from now, you need a good core. Having Quinn, Petey and a good D core is a good core to build from.
I don't think team gets better in a linear fashion, there are going to be bumps along the way, that's just life. We see it this year. When shit doesn't go your way, just keep on building and adding, as long as the cap is managed correctly, pro and amateur scouting is on point, you just keep on building.
The issue I see with what you guys propose is that because you don't see a clear trajectory, you assume there is none. I completely disagree with that type of thinking.
i already said that if you think the canucks are years away from contending then we don't disagree. i also think they are years away from contending. arguing semantics of what 'fringe playoff team' and 'wild card team' and 'bubble team' isn't very interesting
no one has ever said there's no hope for this team. there's always some hope. no one would have predicted washington being a monster this season. you keep telling people they are misrepresenting your opinions but you're not doing a very good job of responding to the actual substance of the counterarguments here. like maybe one poster thinks this team is doomed. everyone else is just skeptical they can improve much over the next season or two
It kind of depends on how you look at our core.
1. Quinn Hughes (25): Norris calibre defenseman, one of the best players in the game. Two years away from free agency.
2. Elias Pettersson (26)): 58 point centre with injury issues making 11.6 million dollars per year.
3. Thatcher Demko (29): injury prone goalie that may never be consistently health again. Sporting a .892 svp this year.
4. Filip Hronek: (27): number 2-3 two way defensemen.
Who else is part of the core? Previously when people spoke of the Canucks core they were talking about the younger higher end potential guys, like Pettersson, Hughes, Horvat, Boeser, Miller and Demko. In that vein, I'm not sure who else you can include to the above list. Perhaps Hronek?
sting101
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yes it's odd how many people are willing and have been dumping Boeser into the trash for the better parts of 3 of the last 4yrs. The most glaring right before he broke out and kept this carcass of a team alive for a few more weeks.
Need someone to clutch up and score some big goals it's Boeser. Has the ice water in his veins shot accuracy/velocity the grit smarts to get himself into the positions with the deft hands to finish plays off.
Not a lot of good options in the market beyond some Marner miracle and i'm not convinced Ehlers would be a huge upgrade either given the role he would have here plus his 172lbs and the loss of Boeser.
Gonne be interesting to see what happens but most believe Boeser is a goner which makes our top2 lines laughable
being precise when it comes to describing what we are now and where we want to get to is pretty god damn important. I don't even know what you mean by fringe playoff team, is that a bubble team or is that a WC team? There is a big difference in quality between the 2.
I didn't say that people are misrepresenting my opinion. I am saying YOU are misrepresenting my opinion and I laid out exactly how YOU misinterpreted it. I can repeat it, I did not say at all that we will be a fringe playoff teams in a few years or for a few years, that is what you are misinterpreting. I have said we are a wild card team at this very moment that is a bubble team because of injuries. WC team = a team that is expected to finish at a WC spot which means they have been in the playoff picture for majority of the season and is pretty much a lock for the WC spots. bubble team = teams battling for the last WC spot and is hovering in and outside of the playoff picture for majority of the season.
well prior to injuries, Demko and Petey was elite. So if all of them can be healthy and recover the form, we have an elite forward, defender and goalie. The only thing we would be missing is an elite winger, if we get that then technically all we have to do is fill out the roster and add depth. A lot hinges on Petey and Demko recovering their health and form.
Miller showed his true colors years ago and it should of been dealt with before it got to this point.
Reverend Mayhem
Lowly Serf/Reluctant Cuckold
My only complaint with him is the player who doesn't backcheck 100% of the time, doesn't get to complain 100% of the time.
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