MAF

[plaidchuck]

The 1986 and 1993 Canadians were not stacked teams

Was mainly speaking about Colorado, but yes 86 was beyond impressive and even if you shuffle him he’s in the top five.

93 team got lucky with all of the OT wins. In another universe they get thumped by a healthy Pens teams. If Ifs and Buts were Candy and Nuts though..

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Would you be shocked if i told you Marty and MAF have the same save percentage? I was shocked seeing that. Career save percentage .912. Marty played with a trap team in a clutch/grab era. MAF played with run/gun Pens teams.

Not saying that defines anything, but it just kinda shocked me.

Would have to look at shots against for full context. Those Devils teams you could barely get 20 shots per game. So if 1 goes in, it's gonna wreck Broduer's SV%.

But you cannot put Broduer and MAF in the same stratosphere. Broduer is at the elite tier with Roy/Hasek.

 

[JRS91]

You said he was top 5 all time. Would that not imply nearly perfect?

Nobody's perfect or close to it, not even the greatest players.

I also said arguably, given his numbers. People are once again not looking at the numbers and are summarizing his entire legacy with 2-3 bad playoff series which weren't even entirely his fault.

 

[SomeDude]

Broduer is at the elite tier with Roy/Hasek.

I would argue that. I think Roy and Hasek are a tier above Brodeur. Brodeur is a tough one to gauge because he played behind some of the best defensive teams ever. If he had a stint somewhere else, other than 5 minutes in St. Louis, it would be more telling.

MAF’s top comp on hockey reference is Belfour which is pretty apt to me. He also doesn’t really have any great comps, percentage wise, compared to all the other goalies which just shows how much of an enigma he is.

I will say that he could be the last truly entertaining goalie that I would buy a ticket to watch. I like athletic goalies who play based on their instincts which has been coached out of all of them right when MAF came in the league. The style has its flaws, but it leads to a lot more fun.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah I have some not-so-great memories of Fleury but you can't say he wasn't extraordinarily entertaining. Sometimes TOO entertaining but still... the position has gotten so clinical and he was one of the last to sorta of have his own style combined with simply leaning on his near-otherworldly athletic ability.

 

[plaidchuck]

Yeah I was going to say the same. He’s probably the last of a dying breed that used athleticism for saves instead of just angles and percentages.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah I was going to say the same. He’s probably the last of a dying breed that used athleticism for saves instead of just angles and percentages.

Modern goaltending is so unbelievably schizophrenic that I'm not entirely sold that it's some kind of improvement on the old ways.

It seems like the Vezina winner one year is a total dog the next. That's an exaggeration but not by a ton IMO.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Nobody's perfect or close to it, not even the greatest players.

I also said arguably, given his numbers. People are once again not looking at the numbers and are summarizing his entire legacy with 2-3 bad playoff series which weren't even entirely his fault.

So, to be top 5 all time just means numbers?

 

[HandshakeLine]

I would argue that. I think Roy and Hasek are a tier above Brodeur. Brodeur is a tough one to gauge because he played behind some of the best defensive teams ever. If he had a stint somewhere else, other than 5 minutes in St. Louis, it would be more telling.

MAF’s top comp on hockey reference is Belfour which is pretty apt to me. He also doesn’t really have any great comps, percentage wise, compared to all the other goalies which just shows how much of an enigma he is.

I will say that he could be the last truly entertaining goalie that I would buy a ticket to watch. I like athletic goalies who play based on their instincts which has been coached out of all of them right when MAF came in the league. The style has its flaws, but it leads to a lot more fun.

I look at it this way- Brodeur was so unfairly good at his position that they actually made a rule change to penalize him. Those Devils teams were defensive powerhouses but they were built around Stevens and Brodeur, not to insulate Brodeur.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I would argue that. I think Roy and Hasek are a tier above Brodeur. Brodeur is a tough one to gauge because he played behind some of the best defensive teams ever. If he had a stint somewhere else, other than 5 minutes in St. Louis, it would be more telling.

MAF’s top comp on hockey reference is Belfour which is pretty apt to me. He also doesn’t really have any great comps, percentage wise, compared to all the other goalies which just shows how much of an enigma he is.

I will say that he could be the last truly entertaining goalie that I would buy a ticket to watch. I like athletic goalies who play based on their instincts which has been coached out of all of them right when MAF came in the league. The style has its flaws, but it leads to a lot more fun.

But you also can't punish Broduer for being on such stingy defensive teams (along with the coach who breathed defensive responsibility).

But I think Belfour is a really good comp to MAF. Guy who himself had some high highs and terrible lows.
And also agree that you won't see another MAF type in the league. Coincidently, the "athletic goalie" era was pretty much started by Hasek/Broduer and MAF closes that era.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah had 92 gone another way, Belfour would have very much the same resume as MAF. Again both were very much above average, but not the elite when they played, IMO.

 

[Khelandros]

Would have to look at shots against for full context. Those Devils teams you could barely get 20 shots per game. So if 1 goes in, it's gonna wreck Broduer's SV%.

But you cannot put Broduer and MAF in the same stratosphere. Broduer is at the elite tier with Roy/Hasek.

Brodeur drops out of the top tier solely due to him pulling the old Shanahan on his wife.

 

[SomeDude]

Yeah I have some not-so-great memories of Fleury but you can't say he wasn't extraordinarily entertaining. Sometimes TOO entertaining but still... the position has gotten so clinical and he was one of the last to sorta of have his own style combined with simply leaning on his near-otherworldly athletic ability.

Peak Matt Murray was about as good as it gets and he was boring as hell to watch. Boring is a good thing for goalies these days, but positioning is the only thing they care about now. The game is more fun when you have a nut case just trying to get a body part in front of the puck at any cost.

I said back when they started shrinking the pads that MAF would benefit from it as it would be more challenging to just play the angle right and stand there and let the puck hit you, which he did not rely on as much as most. He had some of his best years including his Vezina year after that.

But you also can't punish Broduer for being on such stingy defensive teams (along with the coach who breathed defensive responsibility).

I'm not really trying to beat down Marty, but there are a lot of pretty good goalies that get crapped on because they're stuck behind garbage teams. Corey Schwab was a sieve and had a career sub .900 save % and above 3 GAA prior to his stint in New Jersey and put up 1.47/.933 in the year he backed up Marty. Brodeur 100% benefitted from playing behind that team and system. It's just a matter of how much, which is impossible to quantify.

 

[cygnus47]

Peak Matt Murray was about as good as it gets and he was boring as hell to watch. Boring is a good thing for goalies these days, but positioning is the only thing they care about now. The game is more fun when you have a nut case just trying to get a body part in front of the puck at any cost.

I've re-watched 2016 and 17 and he definitely got fairly lucky that run, but yeah the giant loose pads and the way we played D helped a lot. He still panicked on rebounds and had a weak glove, but he was awesome at not leaving rebounds. The pucks just stopped when they hit him. It was like he had a sticky jersey and pillows for pads.

 

[ColePens]

Would have to look at shots against for full context. Those Devils teams you could barely get 20 shots per game. So if 1 goes in, it's gonna wreck Broduer's SV%.

But you cannot put Broduer and MAF in the same stratosphere. Broduer is at the elite tier with Roy/Hasek.

I didn't put them in the same tier. In fact, in an earlier post i made it clear I thought Marty was in a higher tier.

I just also don't think 99% of the people here knew Marty/MAF had the same .912 save % for their career. I think that would shock just about any fan.

Thus I think it's worth at least discussing. MAF is a strange one to argue about. I think he's a no brainer HOFer and I would say he's 2nd or 3rd tier of the HoF group. DEfinitely not in #1 but would fall somewhere in 2 or 3.

And remember -- this is coming from a guy who was run out of LetsGoPens forum back in like 05/06 when i said MAF's rebound control was bad. ANNNNND i was a big Murray fan until he unfortunately lost his game when his father passed.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I didn't put them in the same tier. In fact, in an earlier post i made it clear I thought Marty was in a higher tier.

I just also don't think 99% of the people here knew Marty/MAF had the same .912 save % for their career. I think that would shock just about any fan.

Thus I think it's worth at least discussing. MAF is a strange one to argue about. I think he's a no brainer HOFer and I would say he's 2nd or 3rd tier of the HoF group. DEfinitely not in #1 but would fall somewhere in 2 or 3.

And remember -- this is coming from a guy who was run out of LetsGoPens forum back in like 05/06 when i said MAF's rebound control was bad. ANNNNND i was a big Murray fan until he unfortunately lost his game when his father passed.

Brodeur was/is Fleury's idol as well.

Fitting they are #1/#2 on the all-time win list.

 

[Turin]

As much hate as this guy got, he's arguably a top 5 goalie of all-time.

He's definitely the best goalie in Penguins franchise history. 3 Stanley Cups, 2nd most wins all-time, 5-time all-star. He's definitely up there in my opinion with Brodeur, Roy, and Hasek.

No way unfortunately. He could have been but he didn’t have the mentality for it. He never had a full really good playoffs where he didn’t noticeably get shaky besides 2008 and only had one Vezina late in his career. He had a really good career but I don’t think he actually reached his full potential.