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MAF

SomeDude said:
Every goalie has had low points in the playoffs. The greats obviously have a lot less.

People who hate him refuse to take into account how outclassed many of those Bylsma teams were. His system got caved in the playoffs after 2009. It’s almost like other teams went easy on him in the regular season just to bait him into doing the same thing every playoff so the Pens weren’t a serious threat.

That isn’t to say MAF wasn’t the main reason for some of those losses. He was downright awful for a bit there, but there are some people who insist the Pens win more Cups with any other goalie which I cannot buy. Bylsma held them back just as much as anyone else, injuries screwed them one way or another like 4 years, but for some reason it seems like it’s impossible for some to accept there can be more than one reason that a team doesn’t win a Cup every year.

His career playoff save % was .911 which isn’t bad. It’s a little above average which tracks when you look back at individual seasons. Some were horrible with .850 and others he was dominant with .933. It was feast or famine.

Speaking of goalies who have gotten too much heat, it is insane that Patrick Lalime got a rep as a choker. That guy has top 10 all-time playoff stats. .926 sv% and 1.77 GAA. I remember him letting in a couple softies which didn’t help the optics, but that looks more like a good goalie playing on a crappy team which checks out with those Sens teams. Everyone needs a scapegoat.
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There's some truth to this, but you can't claim "the system is bad" when you let people continually bank pucks off your backside and into the net. I mean he had it happen to him in Detroit in back to back Cup Finals then followed it up with similar hilarious goals against during his shitshow of 2011 to 2014.

He seemed to get his head on straight from 2015 onwards, but man he was downright horrific for that timeperiod. So people wondering if another Cup may have been in the cards with Geno/Sid/Letang and others in their primes and merely an average netminder playing have some merit.

Someone said it already: MAF appears to be a tremendous human being and fantastic teammate. He should be feted for that.
But people have a legit gripe about those pockets of time where he was a direct hinderance to his team's success.
 
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Fleury dealt with the knowledge he was being traded in 2017 all year and it clearly affected his game but he champed it out and he was the biggest reason the Pens beat Washington that year.
 
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I used to get really tilted about that poor playoff stretch he had from like 2010 to 2014 or whatever. It was just so aggravating watching him melt down back then.

But you know what, Maf backstopped us in 2009, and he got his head on straight and was a big part of why we won in 2017 as well. I forgave him after 2017.

At this point I wonder if we win another one if we'd kept him instead of Murray. I'm not second guessing the decision as keeping Murray was 100% the right move given the knowledge the Pens had at the time and anyone arguing otherwise is out to lunch. But one can't help but wonder.
 
Anyone who claims Fleury was a consistently elite as a Penguin is engaging in pretty egregious historical revisionism. His play in the regular season was mostly good, occasionally great, although he had several long stretches where his backups were outplaying him (Brent Johnson, Vokoun, and of course Murray). In the playoffs, he was all over the place: sometimes excellent (2008, 2017), sometimes average, sometimes unbelievably awful (2012, 2013) But as a whole, I think he had a stellar career here and elsewhere, and his contributions to the Penguins franchise far exceed those of any other goaltender. It's impossible to imagine the "Crosby era" without him.
 
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orby said:
Anyone who claims Fleury was a consistently elite as a Penguin is engaging in pretty egregious historical revisionism. His play in the regular season was mostly good, occasionally great, although he had several long stretches where his backups were outplaying him (Brent Johnson, Vokoun, and of course Murray). In the playoffs, he was all over the place: sometimes excellent (2008, 2017), sometimes average, sometimes unbelievably awful (2012, 2013) But as a whole, I think he had a stellar career here and elsewhere, and his contributions to the Penguins franchise far exceed those of any other goaltender. It's impossible to imagine the "Crosby era" without him.
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I dont think the question to the majority is whether or not MAF was consistently elite. I don't even think the question is whether or not he was consistent. :laugh:

I think the question is - where does he fall along side other HOF goalies. What inconsistencies did they have? Who is a HOFer who was equally up/down? And I would credit him for 2 SC titles because he was the star for half the playoffs in 17 and definitely 09. Then 2 more times to the finals. Who has a pretty similar resume that is in the HOF.

I think obviously guys like Hasek/Roy/Brodeur are not in the same ballpark as MAF. They are next tier up. I left a BUNCH of old-time names off because IDK.. i never watched them.

Then we get to guys like Lundqvist... interesting. Dan Marino of the NHL and no title to me is a no-go for Henrik. That's an EASY name to put up against MAF and have a reasonable debate on stats/titles.
 
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I mean out of goalies who are better on the all time list, leaving out pioneers like Sawchuck Esposito or Plante (so only or mostly masked goalies), you have people like Dryden, Roy, Hašek, and Brodeur in one tier. Then you have guys like Smith, Fuhr, Barrasso, who have some stellar accomplishments but weren’t as revolutionary. I’d put MAF with Price in another group of very good but flawed goalies, kind of like B+ guys.

I think the comparison to Francis is kind of weirdly on the money TBH, although MAF never had Francis’ consistency.
 
Fleury by no means was perfect.

I remember people wanting to trade him and make Brent Johnson our starter there for a little bit. Then people wanted Vokoun to be the starter. They could've had 1998 Dominik Hasek in net for some of those Bylsma teams and he probably would've struggled.

Yes, Fleury absolutely had lapses in the playoffs and gave up some bad goals, but the defense in front of him and the system didn't help him at times. It's crazy that when he went to Vegas, in a more structured system he performed better in the playoffs. Make no mistake, I'm by not means saying Fleury was a Lundqvist level goalie that could carry the team by himself, but people saying he was only "above average" is extremely laughable.
 
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JRS91 said:
Fleury by no means was perfect.

I remember people wanting to trade him and make Brent Johnson our starter there for a little bit. Then people wanted Vokoun to be the starter. They could've had 1998 Dominik Hasek in net for some of those Bylsma teams and he probably would've struggled.

Yes, Fleury absolutely had lapses in the playoffs and gave up some bad goals, but the defense in front of him and the system didn't help him at times. It's crazy that when he went to Vegas, in a more structured system he performed better in the playoffs. Make no mistake, I'm by not means saying Fleury was a Lundqvist level goalie that could carry the team by himself, but people saying he was only "above average" is extremely laughable.
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Until they needed him to be clutch and he melted down under pressure, causing them to get rid of him.
 
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JRS91 said:
As much hate as this guy got, he's arguably a top 5 goalie of all-time.

He's definitely the best goalie in Penguins franchise history. 3 Stanley Cups, 2nd most wins all-time, 5-time all-star. He's definitely up there in my opinion with Brodeur, Roy, and Hasek.
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Love fleury but nah. Dude was mid for most of his career. Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur dominated
 
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Son Goku said:
Love fleury but nah. Dude was mid for most of his career. Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur dominated
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Would you be shocked if i told you Marty and MAF have the same save percentage? I was shocked seeing that. Career save percentage .912. Marty played with a trap team in a clutch/grab era. MAF played with run/gun Pens teams.

Not saying that defines anything, but it just kinda shocked me.
 
JRS91 said:
Fleury by no means was perfect.

I remember people wanting to trade him and make Brent Johnson our starter there for a little bit. Then people wanted Vokoun to be the starter. They could've had 1998 Dominik Hasek in net for some of those Bylsma teams and he probably would've struggled.

Yes, Fleury absolutely had lapses in the playoffs and gave up some bad goals, but the defense in front of him and the system didn't help him at times. It's crazy that when he went to Vegas, in a more structured system he performed better in the playoffs. Make no mistake, I'm by not means saying Fleury was a Lundqvist level goalie that could carry the team by himself, but people saying he was only "above average" is extremely laughable.
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You said he was top 5 all time. Would that not imply nearly perfect?
 
Ulf5 said:

Thanks for the memories kid. Thanks for being more than a hockey player. Thanks for being a top-class, selfless, caring person that touched countless lives. Thanks for practical jokes. Thanks for your contributions to the Cups. Just Thanks for being you.
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He had a great run. 3 cups and a Vezina and made a lot of friends along the way while being a fantastic and humble bloke that donated and didn’t want publicity for it.

I like that he’s going to the worlds. Hope he wins one last time with Sid. Wouldn’t that be something.
 
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Gurglesons said:
Wrong. No. Absolutely not.

MAF won one Stanley Cup.

He’s a complier.

I don’t think he is even top five of the cap era.

Lundqvist, Luongo, Price, Rask are clearly ahead of him.

Then you get into the arguments like Holtby, Vokoun, Bishop, and others.
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Pens don’t win those back to back cups without Fleury there either. It is a team effort and he played his part in them.
 
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Gurglesons said:
Thomas didn't take Luongo's job.

If you want to talk about getting outplayed in series.. that's MAF in ever series lol. Osgood had a .930 to MAF's .913 in the one SCF he won.
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Penguins developed Fleury like they wanted to see how many f***ing things they can do wrong by him and see if he can succeed somehow.

They were the biggest f***ing idiots with how they handled Fleury the moment he got his first game in the NHL. f***ed around to avoid his bonus, didn’t have a proper goalie coach for him for years, just an absolute shit show. He was thrown in at 18. Most goalies now don’t get in until they have some pro experience over seas or the AHL and are eased in. The bloke was thrown to the wolves by a shit show franchise. He got some development, sort of, during the lockout year, but to have the career he had given that, yeah he deserves a ton more respect.

Also all players are compiling/compilers, Crosby fan boys here wanked furiously to some dumb milestones during meaningless non playoff years. Does it make it mean less?
 
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JRS91 said:
As much hate as this guy got, he's arguably a top 5 goalie of all-time.

He's definitely the best goalie in Penguins franchise history. 3 Stanley Cups, 2nd most wins all-time, 5-time all-star. He's definitely up there in my opinion with Brodeur, Roy, and Hasek.
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Absolutely not. Like not even close. How many seasons was he even a top 5 goalie?
 
plaidchuck said:
If you don’t go by pure stat lines you can reshuffle these top all time lists forever. You could drop Roy and say he was on stacked teams, drop Brodeur since he benefited from the trap and dead puck era, move Hasek and Lundqvist up since they dragged pretty trash teams to the cup finals, move Jim Carey up for having one of the highest save pcts in the 80s :laugh:
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The 1986 and 1993 Canadians were not stacked teams
 
ColePens said:
Yeah I am looking at like those long-term guys (the Francis/Recchi/etc) when I see MAF. Truth is.. I don't know where I stand on evaluating his career. I feel like I sit in the middle and haven't looked back at other goalies careers. Like what if I reviewed the top 10 goalies all time vs. maybe the next 10 after that. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere between 5-15 there are goalies who had playoff blowups like MAF did. Im not sure. I didn't do the research. But i'd sure love a discussion about it! :laugh:
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Hint: they didn't. When you are that bad in the playoffs it's rare to get that many additional opportunities
 
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