Luongo was offer sheeted by Detroit in 2006

[jigglysquishy]

He brought this up on the Spittin Chiclets podcast. Shortly after getting traded to Vancouver he was offer sheeted by Detroit but didn't sign it.

How different are those 2007-2010 Wings with an elite goaltender?

Hasek was good, but really old. Osgood was uninspiring.

Click to read more...

 

[WarriorofTime]

Not sure the cap ramifications, who they’d have to depart from

 

[Hobnobs]

He brought this up on the Spittin Chiclets podcast. Shortly after getting traded to Vancouver he was offer sheeted by Detroit but didn't sign it.

How different are those 2007-2010 Wings with an elite goaltender?

Hasek was good, but really old. Osgood was uninspiring.

The cup winning goalie putting on a smythe worthy performance, twice, was uninspiring?

 

[FissionFire]

He probably wins 1-3 Cups on the Wings and puts to bed any doubters that he can win Cups.

 

[Voight]

He brought this up on the Spittin Chiclets podcast. Shortly after getting traded to Vancouver he was offer sheeted by Detroit but didn't sign it.

How different are those 2007-2010 Wings with an elite goaltender?

Hasek was good, but really old. Osgood was uninspiring.

Osgood had 1.55GAA & .930 SV% in 2008. 2.01GAA, .926 SV% in 2009. (Playoffs*)

I wouldn't call those numbers uninspiring.

 

[Hobnobs]

He probably wins 1-3 Cups on the Wings and puts to bed any doubters that he can win Cups.

The guy fell apart in basically every playoffs he was in. Why would the post-lockout wings be any different?

 

[Michael Farkas]

The cup winning goalie putting on a smythe worthy performance, twice, was uninspiring?

Very definitely, yes. Not that he had anything close to a Smythe worthy performance in reality, but the averaging stuff is there because the Wings were the best team.

With Luongo, that's a four 1st round pick deal.

The Wings don't do 1st round picks for a while here...

No McCollum (30th, bust), they traded 29 for 32 and 75 at the '09 draft; no Sheahan (21st, 4th liner), in 2011 they traded 24 for 35 and 48.

32 and 75 are Landon Ferraro and Nestrasil - so nothing much there. 35 and 48 are Jurco and Ouellet - not too much there either.

So, the draft picks netted basically nothing for them.

The cap would have been about 7 bills.

Osgood and Hasek were making less than $2 mil combined I think. I'm assuming it's Osgood that gets dealt again...so there's about a mil back. I don't think they net any meaningful asset out of Osgood. Maybe a decent or mid-round pick.

They acquire Bertuzzi in 06-07 and they don't really deal any salary back...so I imagine that deal is off the table. Which is no great loss for Detroit.

I don't want to over-simplify, but this seems to cost the Wings fairly little. I'm sure they'd have to maybe "downgrade" a depth d-man...like the physical, but unreliable Danny Markov.

The Wings go 16-1 in 2008 with Luongo. And depending on how they manage the finances of it all, they're a legit threat to win in '09 and '10 too probably. As much as Luongo is sort of a non-serious player at times, he's so much more talented than Osgood that it's worth the weaker mental game.

2010 they get dumped by San Jose...but they lost that series despite the performance of Nabokov in some respects. If they could have zipped up the net a bit more with Luongo over Jimmy Howard...that's a winnable series. I don't know if they can get by Chicago's firepower, but they'd at least have a shot. I also figure Howard would be dealt for scoring help at this point.

It's always a lot of what-ifs with these...but goaltending was the hole in the death star on these teams, a little bit by design...

Luongo gets a lot of "I told you so" points if this goes down...maybe so much that he and Lundqvist swap positions on our top 60 list.

 

[Hobnobs]

Very definitely, yes. Not that he had anything close to a Smythe worthy performance in reality, but the averaging stuff is there because the Wings were the best team.

With Luongo, that's a four 1st round pick deal.

The Wings don't do 1st round picks for a while here...

No McCollum (30th, bust), they traded 29 for 32 and 75 at the '09 draft; no Sheahan (21st, 4th liner), in 2011 they traded 24 for 35 and 48.

32 and 75 are Landon Ferraro and Nestrasil - so nothing much there. 35 and 48 are Jurco and Ouellet - not too much there either.

So, the draft picks netted basically nothing for them.

The cap would have been about 7 bills.

Osgood and Hasek were making less than $2 mil combined I think. I'm assuming it's Osgood that gets dealt again...so there's about a mil back. I don't think they net any meaningful asset out of Osgood. Maybe a decent or mid-round pick.

They acquire Bertuzzi in 06-07 and they don't really deal any salary back...so I imagine that deal is off the table. Which is no great loss for Detroit.

I don't want to over-simplify, but this seems to cost the Wings fairly little. I'm sure they'd have to maybe "downgrade" a depth d-man...like the physical, but unreliable Danny Markov.

The Wings go 16-1 in 2008 with Luongo. And depending on how they manage the finances of it all, they're a legit threat to win in '09 and '10 too probably. As much as Luongo is sort of a non-serious player at times, he's so much more talented than Osgood that it's worth the weaker mental game.

2010 they get dumped by San Jose...but they lost that series despite the performance of Nabokov in some respects. If they could have zipped up the net a bit more with Luongo over Jimmy Howard...that's a winnable series. I don't know if they can get by Chicago's firepower, but they'd at least have a shot. I also figure Howard would be dealt for scoring help at this point.

It's always a lot of what-ifs with these...but goaltending was the hole in the death star on these teams, a little bit by design...

Luongo gets a lot of "I told you so" points if this goes down...maybe so much that he and Lundqvist swap positions on our top 60 list.

Both Osgood and Hasek had better playoff performances than Luongo except maybe his 07. And no you can't blame it on "team strength" either.

And no, Detroit doesn't go 16-1 in 2008 with Luongo because simply there is no evidence of that.

It's such a bizarre world here sometimes when we argue that a goalie who never put up any meaningful playoff performances would all of the sudden do better than goalies that did.

As for the cap. With Luongo they don't just lose Hossa but one of Z and Franzen as well or rather they wouldn't be able to sign Hossa at all and lose Franzen. There is no "maybe they have to downgrade a depth defenseman". They have to shed serious salary to fit Luongo. It's icredibly weird to say that spending more than 3x on what was actually spent on goalies would only effect the roster minimally.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Osgood was better than Luongo, so they probably do slightly worse.


After 09, Luongo was way better than Howard but I dont think the wings were capable of winning by that point.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Hossa is way off in the future, right? He's in Atlanta still and has to end up in Pittsburgh first. With no Detroit offer, he stays a Penguin probably.

I don't know when Franzen had to be re-signed, but again, the season we're talking about (right?) they brought in Bertuzzi without giving up a roster player and Bert was making like $6 mil or so. So, they had some room somewhere...

No, you're right. There is no evidence of Luongo going 16-1 for the Wings. In which case, we lock the thread now and sit quietly for the rest of the day haha

Luongo hadn't played a playoff game yet, so he didn't get assigned the reputation. The funny thing about goalie reputations is that they can be erased by team situations (see: Bobrovsky...still one of the all time worst playoff players...but something happened more recently, so...).

Luongo in a serious situation coming out of Florida while he's still in his prime...who knows what it does.

Maybe he gets Legace'd or CuJo'd out of the way just as quickly...but that '08 Wings team could have played that playoffs with a dog bed lying in net and won...the only reason why the Pens won a game was because of Osgood, he kept us alive right to the horn in game 6. That was the only hope. I can't imagine Luongo being worse. It's not realistic to expect worse from Luongo considering just how many tiers apart they are.

 

[JackSlater]

I heard this but I don't see how it works with the cap. In an impossible world where Detroit just drops Luongo in instead of Hasek/Osgood I don't see it making a huge difference. Detroit wins in 2008 regardless. Detroit wins in 2009 if the team is reasonably healthy and part of that is that Osgood was very good in those playoffs. Maybe Luongo makes a difference in 2009 if he can steal a game in the finals, but the main benefit would be if Luongo in net somehow butterfly effected a healthier team. Detroit was outplayed, given how the games were played, in 2007 and I do not think that Luongo changes things.

2010 Detroit would play differently if it had elite goaltending, that's the most interesting year to me. I do not see how Detroit could be the favourite over Chicago in the west, but maybe Babcock figures out a way to play to and emphasize Luongo's strengths since the team was moving adrift by that point. I don't see a Stanley Cup that year.

Osgood was better than Luongo, so they probably do slightly worse.


After 09, Luongo was way better than Howard but I dont think the wings were capable of winning by that point.

Come on now. It's like comparing an all star centre with a third line centre. They don't even belong in comparison with each other. Luongo was much better.

 

[Hobnobs]

Maybe he gets Legace'd or CuJo'd out of the way just as quickly...but that '08 Wings team could have played that playoffs with a dog bed lying in net and won...the only reason why the Pens won a game was because of Osgood, he kept us alive right to the horn in game 6. That was the only hope. I can't imagine Luongo being worse. It's not realistic to expect worse from Luongo considering just how many tiers apart they are.

Ah the famous anti-Osgood bias. But sure the goalie posting .700s in deciding games would be better. It's a really weird take. If only there were goalies who played for the red wings that failed to prove you wrong....

 

[Hobnobs]

I heard this but I don't see how it works with the cap. In an impossible world where Detroit just drops Luongo in instead of Hasek/Osgood I don't see it making a huge difference. Detroit wins in 2008 regardless. Detroit wins in 2009 if the team is reasonably healthy and part of that is that Osgood was very good in those playoffs. Maybe Luongo makes a difference in 2009 if he can steal a game in the finals, but the main benefit would be if Luongo in net somehow butterfly effected a healthier team. Detroit was outplayed, given how the games were played, in 2007 and I do not think that Luongo changes things.

2010 Detroit would play differently if it had elite goaltending, that's the most interesting year to me. I do not see how Detroit could be the favourite over Chicago in the west, but maybe Babcock figures out a way to play to and emphasize Luongo's strengths since the team was moving adrift by that point. I don't see a Stanley Cup that year.


Come on now. It's like comparing an all star centre with a third line centre. They don't even belong in comparison with each other. Luongo was much better.

2010 is where we lost a lot of our depth. And depth we might not even have had because of Luongos contract. Like Hossa, Kopecky, Samuelsson, Conklin and would probably not be able to afford all the cheaper replacements we got. Plus we wouldn't have Franzen anymore.

 

[JackSlater]

2010 is where we lost a lot of our depth. And depth we might not even have had because of Luongos contract. Like Hossa, Kopecky, Samuelsson, Conklin and would probably not be able to afford all the cheaper replacements we got. Plus we wouldn't have Franzen anymore.

Yeah Detroit wasn't a threat after 2009, as I said I was thinking about the impossible situation where Luongo is just Detroit's goaltender regardless of the cap ramifications from that one change. I don't think Luongo changes much for 2010 Detroit, but obviously less so if Detroit has to shed even more players in 2010.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ah the famous anti-Osgood bias. But sure the goalie posting .700s in deciding games would be better. It's a really weird take. If only there were goalies who played for the red wings that failed to prove you wrong....

Ah, the famous "if you don't agree with me, it must be bias" ploy haha

I don't know what "posting .700s in deciding games" means...is it some save pct. noise? And this is a thing that's in favor of Osgood of all players?

The guy that gave up 3 on 17 to the expansion Sharks in one of the biggest upsets in history?
...who gave up 3 on 16 and then 4 on 22 to lose to the Avs in '96?
...who lost his job to Mike Vernon, where Vernon subsequently won a Conn Smythe?
...who gave up a goal from center in OT to let the Stars back in the series in '98?
...who gave up 4 on 25 to lose to the Avs in 2000?
...who went 0 for 3 in playoff series outside of Detroit?

Vernon hadn't won a playoff series in several years...went to Detroit and immediately went to the Final. Followed it up with a Smythe. Didn't win a playoff series again after that.

Hasek had a losing record (.500?) in playoff series in his career, immediately won in Detroit.

Sure, Curtis Joseph didn't win there...despite leading the league in averaging and rate one of the seasons...you're welcome to fault him to try to prop up Osgood (who was waived by this team in his prime), but the reality is............................well, pretty clear. Osgood isn't anything special. We would have completely forgotten about his existence if he didn't have professional loyalty...

 

[Hobnobs]

Ah, the famous "if you don't agree with me, it must be bias" ploy haha

I don't know what "posting .700s in deciding games" means...is it some save pct. noise? And this is a thing that's in favor of Osgood of all players?

The guy that gave up 3 on 17 to the expansion Sharks in one of the biggest upsets in history?
...who gave up 3 on 16 and then 4 on 22 to lose to the Avs in '96?
...who lost his job to Mike Vernon, where Vernon subsequently won a Conn Smythe?
...who gave up a goal from center in OT to let the Stars back in the series in '98?
...who gave up 4 on 25 to lose to the Avs in 2000?
...who went 0 for 3 in playoff series outside of Detroit?

Vernon hadn't won a playoff series in several years...went to Detroit and immediately went to the Final. Followed it up with a Smythe. Didn't win a playoff series again after that.

Hasek had a losing record (.500?) in playoff series in his career, immediately won in Detroit.

Sure, Curtis Joseph didn't win there...despite leading the league in averaging and rate one of the seasons...you're welcome to fault him to try to prop up Osgood (who was waived by this team in his prime), but the reality is............................well, pretty clear. Osgood isn't anything special. We would have completely forgotten about his existence if he didn't have professional loyalty...

Yet, Osgood still won in the playoffs. All goalies have bad series and performances. I never argued Osgoods career was better. But when it came to deciding games (especially in 08 and 09) Luongo was worse and for some reason people here let him off the hook because "but what if he played on Detroit" like that is some magical land where goalies just dont have to try to win anymore. Joseph, Legace, Howard and lesser goalies failed here.

So yes, it's a bias. Especially when you said Detroit could have won with a dog bed in net. That's the definition of a bias. That's why you mention Osgood was waived in his prime without context because it's not about history.

See it doesn't matter that Osgood had gaffes and was in general a pretty average goalie. Because he had his rise to the occasion moments. Luongo didn't except one olympic tournament. It's that simple. I'm sorry that the good goalie never was a playoff hero but that's just the reality here.

the fact that we wouldn't be able to sign Rafalski and most likely not get Brad Stuart already makes this team a lot weaker for any cup asspirations.

 

[VanIslander]

After Luongo's run to the Stanley Cup Finals in Vancouver as team captain with great help from Kesler...

the brass decided to double-down on the Sedin twins, who dominated San Jose on powerplays to boost stats, but were criticized after playoff games and since then.

Lu & Kesler were shipped away and the Sedins were re-signed. Because Orca Bay was following the Dallas Cowboys blueprint: have token heroes, be competitive enough.

 

[Crosby2010]

Not sure why he didn't sign the Detroit offer sheet. This team just came off a 124 point campaign and was always a contender at that time. I don't know how much better the Wings are since they made the semis in 2007, won in 2008 and made the final in 2009. But maybe they stay longer as a contender with Luongo after 2009.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Come on now. It's like comparing an all star centre with a third line centre. They don't even belong in comparison with each other. Luongo was much better.

Yet Osgood was lights out in 98, 08, 09.


Luongo is another Vancouver legend who never won anything despite multiple presidents trophies. Osgood would never have a pathetic performance in the finals like 2011.

 

[JackSlater]

Yet Osgood was lights out in 98, 08, 09.


Luongo is another Vancouver legend who never won anything despite multiple presidents trophies. Osgood would never have a pathetic performance in the finals like 2011.

Osgood was very good in the 2009 playoffs, and it's the only notable thing he ever really did for Detroit. Luongo was a much better goaltender. It's not close.

 

[FissionFire]

Yet Osgood was lights out in 98, 08, 09.


Luongo is another Vancouver legend who never won anything despite multiple presidents trophies. Osgood would never have a pathetic performance in the finals like 2011.

Luongo would have fared much better on a team with a D corp like Detroit and elite 2-way centers. Lidstrom, Kronwall, Stuart is exponentially better than Edler, Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Bieksa and while Kesler was an elite defensive center, Sedin was a country mile worse than Zetterberg or Datsyuk. Detroit doesn’t get caved defensively like Vancouver did in Games 3,4,6,7.

 

[Dingo]

Well, these were THE two teams I watched then.

Imo, Osgood actually was good in the second run vs Pittsburgh 2009, but i didnt think he was in 2008. In those days i used him as an example of how a team has to play when they are worried about any shot from any location - I felt that he expanded the range of danger much, much more than Luongo did.

Now, Luongo did shit the bed vs Thomas. His wheels fell off hard once they started to go...

I guess we can all only offer our opinions here - Detroit was, imo, one of the best defensive teams Ive seen, and without any doubt the best puck possession and zone exit team I have seen. The type of confidence that should instill in a goalie is through the roof. Zetterberg and Datsyuk really limited opposing star players QUALITY of chances, and if #5 was back there, which he was half of the time, no second chances were to be had. As a Wings fan, I did think Osgood pulled it together, but he had so much help, imo. I didnt think it would last. I think he may have been partly lucky/got hot at the right time. He did NOT give me confidence. At all. Shaky, but he landed the plane.

Vancouver was a solid defensive team, nothing like Detroit. Now, I dont live in Detroit, but I doubt that their media is as goofy as ours here - where they pumped up Luongo as though he were actually better than Hasek, Roy, Brodeur. He was a God, according to them, and i think this played a part in how his wheels fell off. People turned on him, and he had to have been feeling like he was standing on false struts for a long time.

My belief, and i can only guess at this, is that Luongo would havebeen just another cog in the Detroit machine, that he would have been allowed to let in bad goals and been bailed out more often by the team. He wouldnt have been treated as the reason for the loss or win.

Sports are so mental to begin with, goalie is right up there with boxer or golfer in the last nine holes of a major - nearly all mental at that point.

I think, with a better team and less weight on his shoulders, having watched both goalies a lot back then, that Detroit wins at least two Cups, probably more, and Luongo is considered a winner. I think Detroit would win a lot even when he was off a bit. In fact, to have a goalie like that in behind Lidstrom, Rafalski and that host of 200ft forwards..... it makes me think dynasty.

 

[Hobnobs]

Well, these were THE two teams I watched then.

Imo, Osgood actually was good in the second run vs Pittsburgh 2009, but i didnt think he was in 2008. In those days i used him as an example of how a team has to play when they are worried about any shot from any location - I felt that he expanded the range of danger much, much more than Luongo did.

Now, Luongo did shit the bed vs Thomas. His wheels fell off hard once they started to go...

I guess we can all only offer our opinions here - Detroit was, imo, one of the best defensive teams Ive seen, and without any doubt the best puck possession and zone exit team I have seen. The type of confidence that should instill in a goalie is through the roof. Zetterberg and Datsyuk really limited opposing star players QUALITY of chances, and if #5 was back there, which he was half of the time, no second chances were to be had. As a Wings fan, I did think Osgood pulled it together, but he had so much help, imo. I didnt think it would last. I think he may have been partly lucky/got hot at the right time. He did NOT give me confidence. At all. Shaky, but he landed the plane.

Vancouver was a solid defensive team, nothing like Detroit. Now, I dont live in Detroit, but I doubt that their media is as goofy as ours here - where they pumped up Luongo as though he were actually better than Hasek, Roy, Brodeur. He was a God, according to them, and i think this played a part in how his wheels fell off. People turned on him, and he had to have been feeling like he was standing on false struts for a long time.

My belief, and i can only guess at this, is that Luongo would havebeen just another cog in the Detroit machine, that he would have been allowed to let in bad goals and been bailed out more often by the team. He wouldnt have been treated as the reason for the loss or win.

Sports are so mental to begin with, goalie is right up there with boxer or golfer in the last nine holes of a major - nearly all mental at that point.

I think, with a better team and less weight on his shoulders, having watched both goalies a lot back then, that Detroit wins at least two Cups, probably more, and Luongo is considered a winner. I think Detroit would win a lot even when he was off a bit. In fact, to have a goalie like that in behind Lidstrom, Rafalski and that host of 200ft forwards..... it makes me think dynasty.

With Luongos multi million dollar contract there wouldn't be any room for Rafalski

Luongo would have fared much better on a team with a D corp like Detroit and elite 2-way centers. Lidstrom, Kronwall, Stuart is exponentially better than Edler, Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Bieksa and while Kesler was an elite defensive center, Sedin was a country mile worse than Zetterberg or Datsyuk. Detroit doesn’t get caved defensively like Vancouver did in Games 3,4,6,7.

How do Detroit afford Rafalski, Stuart, that forward core AND Luongo @ 7-8 mil per? When they barely could afford them with 2 mill invested in goalies?

 

[Michael Farkas]

How did they afford Bertuzzi?

 

[Hobnobs]

How did they afford Bertuzzi?

Why not quote? Sus

Bert was a deadline aquisition which means they wouldnt take on the full salary and he was gone after the season since they couldnt afford to resign him even if they wanted to. So he was aquired with a less cap hit under the 5.27 mill and you suggest that they would be able to afford Rafalski, Stuart, resigning Datsyuk and so on. Only Luongo, Lidström and Datsyuk would be around half of the teams cap...