Looking back at prime Niklas Kronwall

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Chelios was Messier-style dirty, but I disagree about Konstantinov being that kind of player. He was tough as nails and knocked his opponents to the moon, but for the most part he played a normative physical game for his era.

And that’s really the difference. Those guys played in a league where there was another guy on the other side of the ice playing the same way. Konstantinov’s most famous moments came against guys like Eric Lindros and Claude Lemieux, who were hunting him just as much as he was hunting them.

Kronwall was in a league where that had already rolled back that culture. His prime was the era of CTE research and catastrophic head injuries, with the 2011 season being the turning point where the league finally put their foot down. The emphasis being, we all knew the actual seriousness of high hits by that time.

The exceptions were egregious outliers like Cooke, Torres, Carcillo who were characterized by catching players at moments of vulnerability. Kronwall did his part by figuring out how to hit guys above the shoulders while keeping his pinky toenail in contact with the ice, to avoid penalties on technicality. It was a scummy way to play, no different than scummy crap 20 years earlier from the likes of:

He was really the last defenseman who made a habit of leaping at heads, and he deserves every bit of that reputation. I know you’re going to disagree, but I’m obviously not the only one in the room who felt he was cheap and disrespectful in the way he approached hitting.

And just yesterday I posted about how a Wings goal is my favorite of all time. That doesn’t mean I won’t criticize a player who deserves it, regardless of which team he played for.

You're really only proving my point.

You keep likening Kronwall to one of the dirtiest players to ever play in the NHL in Ulf Samuellson, which is especially hilarious in a post mentioning Torres and Cooke.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, earlier in his career Kronwall would sometimes do an exploding upward motion during hits which had become popular in the league. When the NHL finally started cracking down on it, he adjusted his hitting style. But you seeing him as some outlier in both that exploding upward and him deviously finding some loophole again is revealing.

I don't think all of Kronwall's hits were clean. But he gets the Scott Stevens effect now, where people remember 5 hits and then mischaracterize most of his career.

I don't know if it's bitterness from 2002 but like I said before, I should know better than to respond to any of your posts regarding the Red Wings, especially from that era. It's like Karmanos himself takes over your account.

Equating Kronwall with Ulf. lol

 

[19 for president]

Prime Nick Kronwall played behind Lidstrom. He was already exiting his prime (largely due to injuries) by the time Lids retired.

He wasn't an elite guy outside of his hitting, but in his prime I'd say he was probably in that 20-30 range of dmen. He was solid but not elite defensively. Was more of a jump into the play shooter than a true PP QB. Good but not great outlet passer, definitely more of a skating dman, which is why the injuries took him out of his prime shortly after Lids retired.

Post prime Kronwall was a #2/3 playing as a number #1 and outmatched to some degree on those awful Wing's teams. A lot of people will judge his peak based on this but his peak was behind one of the all time greats.

 

[jetsforever]

Feel like we don't have many guys like that now

 

[tarheelhockey]

You're really only proving my point.

You keep likening Kronwall to one of the dirtiest players to ever play in the NHL in Ulf Samuellson, which is especially hilarious in a post mentioning Torres and Cooke.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, earlier in his career Kronwall would sometimes do an exploding upward motion during hits which had become popular in the league. When the NHL finally started cracking down on it, he adjusted his hitting style. But you seeing him as some outlier in both that exploding upward and him deviously finding some loophole again is revealing.

I don't think all of Kronwall's hits were clean. But he gets the Scott Stevens effect now, where people remember 5 hits and then mischaracterize most of his career.

I don't know if it's bitterness from 2002 but like I said before, I should know better than to respond to any of your posts regarding the Red Wings, especially from that era. It's like Karmanos himself takes over your account.

Equating Kronwall with Ulf. lol

What does Kronwall have to do with 2002? Was he even in the league at that time?

For that matter, have you ever seen me criticize a Wings player other than Kronwall? Serious question. I can’t think of another Wing that I had any kind of issue with.

And notably, it’s not like I criticize Kronwall as a whole player or as a person. It’s specifically because he was one of the few players still throwing hits in 2015 that everyone knew by 2011 were unacceptable. I’m sorry that this makes me some kind of raging lunatic in your eyes, but I’m only reinforcing the same opinion held by most non-Wings fans in this thread.

Regarding his legacy, I could have told you a decade ago that the rest of the league would remember him this way. He really was that guy to people who weren’t rooting for his laundry.

 

[Eye of Ra]

 

[67 others]

He was a more offensive Kyle McLaren

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

I think he spent more time in the air than on the ice.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

What does Kronwall have to do with 2002? Was he even in the league at that time?

For that matter, have you ever seen me criticize a Wings player other than Kronwall? Serious question. I can’t think of another Wing that I had any kind of issue with.

And notably, it’s not like I criticize Kronwall as a whole player or as a person. It’s specifically because he was one of the few players still throwing hits in 2015 that everyone knew by 2011 were unacceptable. I’m sorry that this makes me some kind of raging lunatic in your eyes, but I’m only reinforcing the same opinion held by most non-Wings fans in this thread.

Regarding his legacy, I could have told you a decade ago that the rest of the league would remember him this way. He really was that guy to people who weren’t rooting for his laundry.

You don't need a crystal ball to say he'd be remembered that way. In the same way people wrongly say the Scott Stevens went around braining guys on the regular. And to be clear you're the only one comparing him to one of the dirtiest players of all time. That's not "the same opinion."

I never said you were a raging lunatic. It's that your generally reasonable takes go out the window when it comes to the Wings. It's funny you don't even seem to be aware of it.

Kronwall = Ulf. Sure thing Peter

 

[johan f]

Prime Nick Kronwall played behind Lidstrom. He was already exiting his prime (largely due to injuries) by the time Lids retired.

He wasn't an elite guy outside of his hitting, but in his prime I'd say he was probably in that 20-30 range of dmen. He was solid but not elite defensively. Was more of a jump into the play shooter than a true PP QB. Good but not great outlet passer, definitely more of a skating dman, which is why the injuries took him out of his prime shortly after Lids retired.

Post prime Kronwall was a #2/3 playing as a number #1 and outmatched to some degree on those awful Wing's teams. A lot of people will judge his peak based on this but his peak was behind one of the all time greats.

It is like you never watched him with neutral eyes. If you dislike him just say it.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Maybe my memory is wonky but I feel like I remember he wasn’t a feared defenseman on a daily basis, he just tried to take someone’s head off once a while. Very opportunistic

Predatory is the word certainly. Good for the times not with today's medical knowledge. Open ice hits are still impactful if done properly but difficult to time.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Not to the extent or nature of Kronwall. He was a different animal.

For no other reason than he could time his hits better than everyone else.

That’s a skill in its own.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It is like you never watched him with neutral eyes. If you dislike him just say it.

A lot of the hatred of Kronwall comes not simply from his devastating hits but that he wouldn't fight after them, clean or not (though it is amusing how many people here are suddenly concerned with players' brains when it's Kronner hitting guys).

A hard-hitting Euro player with borderline hits who won't drop the gloves. I'm surprised it didn't make Don Cherry's head explode.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I never said you were a raging lunatic. It's that your generally reasonable takes go out the window when it comes to the Wings. It's funny you don't even seem to be aware of it.

Again — aside from my scorching hot take that Kronwall was one of the trashier hitters of his generation (which a whole bunch of folks in this thread and in the hockey world generally agree with), what other Wings related content are you talking about?

I’m legitimately confused by this and I’m pretty sure it’s the second time you’ve said something about it recently.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

But he was part of a league that had a certain group of guys who just laid in the weeds waiting to catch someone looking the wrong way. It was less Scott Stevens...

I would agree to disagree a bit on this one.

 

[Caspian]

If you don't like Kronwall hits I'm not sure you can call yourself a hockey fan.

if you don't like Matt Cooke hits I'm not sure you can call yourself a hockey fan


see what i did there

 

[tarheelhockey]

I would agree to disagree a bit on this one.

I see what you’re saying there, but again the dynamics were different in the 90s and 00s than they were in the 2010s. The rules were different, the behaviors were different, the ethics were different. In the 90s you would expect a guy to try and catch you high, but that was not normative by 2011.

 

[BHD]

For no other reason than he could time his hits better than everyone else.

That’s a skill in its own.

Brooks Orpik was another player who timed his hits pretty well. That didn’t make them any less questionable. Actually, you could argue his timing made them even more glaring.

You’re ignoring why everyone in this thread (outside of Wings fans) take issue with Kronwall’s hits.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Brooks Orpik was another player who timed his hits pretty well. That didn’t make them any less questionable. Actually, you could argue his timing made them even more glaring.

You’re ignoring why everyone in this thread (outside of Wings fans) take issue with Kronwall’s hits.

Not everyone does. It’s usually fans of teams whose players got demolished by him who seem to have an issue.

Orpik was a very good hitter? I’m not sure what that point was supposed to be?

If you don’t see the value or game changing ability of hits that Kronwall made then I’m not sure what to tell you…

They didn’t/don’t happen all the time because they’re extremely hard to pull off, that’s it. Takes insane timing and lateral skating ability to close that gap so fast and deliver those hits.

Even when hits like that were regarded as nothing but amazing and never once called dirty, there were still fiery few guys who did it, because they couldn’t

 

[seafoam]

I remember him nuking guys.

 

[BHD]

Orpik was a very good hitter? I’m not sure what that point was supposed to be?

You specifically explained how Kronwall was able to land his hits because of his timing. Timing is only part of it. There's the actual hits, which fans aren't impressed with.

If you don’t see the value or game changing ability of hits that Kronwall made then I’m not sure what to tell you…

Would you call it "game changing" if Datsyuk or Zetterberg laid motionless on the ice after a senseless hit?

They didn’t/don’t happen all the time because they’re extremely hard to pull off, that’s it. Takes insane timing and lateral skating ability to close that gap so fast and deliver those hits.

So because he was able toe execute those hits, that somehow downplays the predatory nature of them?

Even when hits like that were regarded as nothing but amazing and never once called dirty, there were still fiery few guys who did it, because they couldn’t

That's nice, but that was then. This is now.

 

[nbwingsfan]

You specifically explained how Kronwall was able to land his hits because of his timing. Timing is only part of it. There's the actual hits, which fans aren't impressed with.



Would you call it "game changing" if Datsyuk or Zetterberg laid motionless on the ice after a senseless hit?



So because he was able toe execute those hits, that somehow downplays the predatory nature of them?



That's nice, but that was then. This is now.

You keep calling the hits “senseless”… they’re not. They’re game changing hits that both tilt the momentum in your favour, and put a LOT of pressure on those wingers to make a panic play if they see him on the ice.

Yes I would have no issue if they were laid out with what were deemed legal hits. Thankfully they kept their head up and didn’t have to play against such a great hitter.

Just because a guy has his head down doesn’t make them “predatory”. That’s called a good hit. I don’t know a ton of hard hockey hits that involved a guy fully aware they’re coming.

 

[Diglett]

07-13 was such a fun time as a Wings fan watching peak Kronwall destroy dudes on the regular.

 

[Realgud]

Swedish dude that played kinda like a Canadian. Dirty and effective. Late round steal as per usual with the redwings finding gems with whatever picks they had.

He was a first round pick though

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

look at the swat force coming in to protect this cupcake

 

[Pavels Dog]

Again — aside from my scorching hot take that Kronwall was one of the trashier hitters of his generation (which a whole bunch of folks in this thread and in the hockey world generally agree with),

I think you meant to say ’figure skating online community’.