Longevity as A Proxy for Hockey Iq

[McGarnagle]

Dion Phaneuf retired at 33 so there might be something to this

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

It's probably a factor, but longevity is a much better proxy for conditioning, work ethic and good habits in general (fitness, nutrition, etc). It becomes exponentially harder to stay in top shape once you get in your mid-thirties; the guys who play past 40 are often gym freaks (Jagr, Chelios, Chara...)

 

[psycat]

Im of the belief that we will see more and more players do well into their late 30s. Advancement in training, money involved(moreso a point when comparing to some decades ago),nutrition and most of all medicine will see to that.

If so will that mean players get smarter and smarter?

 

[The Panther]

Hockey is sort of a uniquely weird major-pro sport in that there are WAY more opportunities for star players (and even non-star players) to keep playing at the NHL level for many seasons past their primes.

It doesn't work that way in basketball, generally, where the longevity of an Abdul-Jabar or James is rare. Some baseball sluggers do hang in there for a long time (as 'designated hitters' in the AL, for example), but more often than not they play one or two seasons in a decline and then are done. (Football, I can't really say as I dislike the sport.)

So, it's just much more common for hockey players to play lots of years past their primes. Top pairing defencemen can change into second-pairing and bottom-pairing Dmen. Top-six forwards can morph into 'two-way' checkers with limited minutes on the third or fourth line.

Compare NBA stars of the 1980s-90s with NHL stars of the same era, when salaries started going through the roof: The NBA guys play until they aren't starters anymore, and then they quit. But the NHL guys go on as long as possible. Larry Bird and Wayne Gretzky started in the same season: Bird quit in 1992, Gretzky in 1999. Detroit superstars: Isiah Thomas is 4 years older than Steve Yzerman and he retired 12 years before Yzerman. 1st overall picks from 2005: Andrew Bogut retired six years ago, Sidney Crosby is still going.

It's rare that sports that require so much endurance and athleticism (as hockey does) allow players to go on so long past their primes.

So, hockey IQ is certainly part of it, but also I think it's just the nature of hockey, where there's a large team with various deployment of players.

 

[solidmotion]

Im of the belief that we will see more and more players do well into their late 30s. Advancement in training, money involved(moreso a point when comparing to some decades ago),nutrition and most of all medicine will see to that.

If so will that mean players get smarter and smarter?

i can see the logic but don't think the stats back this up. just checked a few recent seasons and most of the time there are around 50 35+ players in the league. but that's actually a decline from how it was back in the years after the 05 lockout up until around 2013 or 14 when there were usually between 70 and 80 35+ players. including guys like st louis, selanne, chara, jagr, elias, alfredsson etc who stayed good/elite into their late 30s.

 

[Johnny Engine]

One thing to remember is that having an NHL job is a competitive endeavour, and that older players hanging around is a direct reflection of whether or not younger players can out-compete them. So if someone's telling you "modern health advancements are allowing players to play longer" and "modern training is getting young players NHL ready faster than ever" in the same breath, they're probably misidentified the trend that's actually happening. Not saying psycat thinks these are both broadly true, but I hear both statements spoken as obvious truisms all the time.

Now, the fewer Bobby Orr scenarios we get where a good player's career ended in a medically preventable manner the closer we are to having an NHL made up of all the most talented 21-35 year olds and a few outliers.

 

[NyQuil]

Can anyone think of low hockey iq players who had a long and productive player? Or a very smart player who declined early? Wayne Gretzky, despite being the greatest hockey player of all time and widely considered the smartest, declined a couple of years earlier than you might expect.

I always thought of it in terms of a few different cases.

1. Guys who have remained relatively healthy and have an excess at a skill that provides a margin to lose (particularly skating) and still be competitive.

Mike Gartner is a guy who was one of the fastest players ever. Losing half a step for him still kept him in the upper echelons of NHL skaters.

Meanwhile, guys like Dany Heatley or Jonathan Cheechoo were never swift, and losing half a step meant that they were always half a step behind the play.

2. Guys who had average physical skills (again, with emphasis on skating) and yet still managed to be competitive as they slow down.

Mark Stone is a guy who, despite never having much speed, was able to get into good positions and contribute offensively. Due to his injuries and the usual general deterioration with age, he's seemingly ripe for a fall but still produces at an elite level.

These are the real hockey IQ guys IMO.

3. Guys who made their physical health a priority almost to the point of obsession.

Daniel Alfredsson, Zdeno Chara, these were guys who not only played well into their 30s but continued to improve as they essentially prioritized their training over everything else to stay in peak condition as long as possible.

The Gary Roberts approach.

 

[authentic]

One thing to remember is that having an NHL job is a competitive endeavour, and that older players hanging around is a direct reflection of whether or not younger players can out-compete them. So if someone's telling you "modern health advancements are allowing players to play longer" and "modern training is getting young players NHL ready faster than ever" in the same breath, they're probably misidentified the trend that's actually happening. Not saying psycat thinks these are both broadly true, but I hear both statements spoken as obvious truisms all the time.

Now, the fewer Bobby Orr scenarios we get where a good player's career ended in a medically preventable manner the closer we are to having an NHL made up of all the most talented 21-35 year olds and a few outliers.

I’d say that’s what the NHL is today more so than ever, for exactly this reason.

 

[MadLuke]

So, it's just much more common for hockey players to play lots of years past their primes. Top pairing defencemen can change into second-pairing and bottom-pairing Dmen. Top-six forwards can morph into 'two-way' checkers with limited minutes on the third or fourth line.

True and a big difference with baseball-basketball-soccer, there is less of a stigma of being a starter or not in hockey, being a starter or a bench player is a way more stark in those sports than a fluid-fuzzy line system.

But goaltending would be an exception to the many spot and roles and old (say over 37) goaltenders in hockey having success are not that rare, worsley-plante-hall-bower-hasek-belfour-joseph-brodeur-Roloson-Thomas-Cheevers-Fleury-Anderson-Smith...

They can start their pro career a bit older, more risk for a team to take a chance, probably just not a strong talent poll to replace them and the number of jobs growing at a good enough pace

 

[wintersej]

Hockey is sort of a uniquely weird major-pro sport in that there are WAY more opportunities for star players (and even non-star players) to keep playing at the NHL level for many seasons past their primes.

It doesn't work that way in basketball, generally, where the longevity of an Abdul-Jabar or James is rare. Some baseball sluggers do hang in there for a long time (as 'designated hitters' in the AL, for example), but more often than not they play one or two seasons in a decline and then are done. (Football, I can't really say as I dislike the sport.)

So, it's just much more common for hockey players to play lots of years past their primes. Top pairing defencemen can change into second-pairing and bottom-pairing Dmen. Top-six forwards can morph into 'two-way' checkers with limited minutes on the third or fourth line.

Compare NBA stars of the 1980s-90s with NHL stars of the same era, when salaries started going through the roof: The NBA guys play until they aren't starters anymore, and then they quit. But the NHL guys go on as long as possible. Larry Bird and Wayne Gretzky started in the same season: Bird quit in 1992, Gretzky in 1999. Detroit superstars: Isiah Thomas is 4 years older than Steve Yzerman and he retired 12 years before Yzerman. 1st overall picks from 2005: Andrew Bogut retired six years ago, Sidney Crosby is still going.

It's rare that sports that require so much endurance and athleticism (as hockey does) allow players to go on so long past their primes.

So, hockey IQ is certainly part of it, but also I think it's just the nature of hockey, where there's a large team with various deployment of players.

Hear ya, but Bird isn’t the example you are looking for since he left because he had to spend half the game lying down on the bench because of his back.