Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

[LadyStanley]

Assuming there is a short training camp, would CHL players be allowed to attend even undrafted players that were invited, or will they be stuck on their junior teams?

Answered in stickied Lockout FAQ (with links to list of CHL players eligible to be "recalled") regarding drafted kids.

I'd guess that undrafted (free agent eligible) players are SOL.

 

[Riptide]

It's a good time for the PA to start applying some pressure to keep/expand their contracting rights if the NHL sponsorship deals being based on the # of games is true. Just when the NHL is trying to weasel there way into a 61+ game schedule, hit them over the head with your demands.

Except that those revenue numbers directly impact the PA as well. Dropping from 100% to 75% means the players lose out on 12.5% of that revenue. So yes, it will hurt the league... but it will hurt the players just as much.

 

[MoreOrr]

There is zero downside to negotiating earlier unless you want conflict.

Assuming that there is a 'script' where there is a lockout and thus the players should refuse to negotiate until there is a lockout is such muddy thinking that I don't know why some here insist on it.

I'd say that there is zero downside to negotiating earler unless your objective is to increase the pressure because you know there's going to be conflict,... which there always is. Either way though, it seems like a very negative tactic, both sides treating each as adversaries.

 

[Jyrki]

There is zero downside to negotiating earlier unless you want conflict.

Not necessarily.

Obviously if both parties settled before training camp then no revenues would be lost and profits as a whole would be maximized. But it doesn't mean that either party would've maximized their own profits, which is why both the NHL and NHLPA set themselves up for conflict. Maybe through brinkmanship they could get that extra concession from the other.

But of course if both Fehr and Bettman think that way it means the conflict will drag on and the pie will progressively get smaller, to the point where the benefits of settling before conflict overwhelms "breaking" the other party for extra concessions at a later point since there's less revenue to go around. And make no mistake; both players and owners subconsciously care very much about feeling like they "won" or "lost" the negotiations even if the actual outcome suggests otherwise, which also prevents early settlements and promotes conflict.

 

[Fugu]

So simply because such a playbook exists, it precludes all other possibilities?

It exists for a reason.

 

[Riptide]

And the hundreds of millions Bettman has cost the owners through short sighted CBA's and lockouts somehow make him the winner in all this?

Well seeing how there was only ~250m of PROFIT last season, you can't say Bettman cost the owners much of anything yet - as you would have to see what the numbers at the end of the year say. But if the NHL posts a profit of ~200m in this shortened season and gets the split down and some contractual concessions (not all of them, but say 1 or 2), I'm pretty sure that the NHL would consider that a huge success for them going forward.

 

[Fugu]

Well seeing how there was only ~250m of PROFIT last season, you can't say Bettman cost the owners much of anything yet - as you would have to see what the numbers at the end of the year say. But if the NHL posts a profit of ~200m in this shortened season and gets the split down and some contractual concessions (not all of them, but say 1 or 2), I'm pretty sure that the NHL would consider that a huge success for them going forward.

You don't think the PA had a date circled on their calendar too as to when the BOG might be most amenable to an agreement? I think everyone involved knew the structure of those sponsorship agreements and what real money would be lost (to both sides).

 

[Fishhead]

The NHL only has one playbook: negotiate by creating conflict. I know you'll disagree, but hey, it's the third lockout.



This particular NHL? Absolutely not. Nada. Zero. Zilch. No credit whatsoever for engaging to have the other side "negotiate hard."

There is a playbook here. People can choose to ignore that but please don't overlook that this is the third lockout.

The lockout is a tool used by every major sports league, unfortunately. Has been every since the series was cancelled, and that's Fehr's doing. Sure he won a big battle there, but it's had ramifications on all sports. I would be surprised if we ever see a major strike in sports over a CBA because the players will never be given that chance again.

The NHL just uses the lockout more because, quite frankly, they are poor negotiators - and there is no fat income from television or other media source to make profits easy. I also think the current regime has a lot of owners that lack creativity, and they fallback on the lockout when things get tough. I don't hold the players blameless at all, because they know this and know exactly what is coming if they stall on negotiations. I snicker every time a NHLPA member says "Hey, its not us, they lock us out."

 

[Riptide]

It's a stretch to call Bettman's actions thus far as 'negotiating.' He didn't even present a real proposal until the middle of October.

And if we can believe the reports, Bettman had until December 1st to get a deal done his way otherwise the owners would step in. Bettman failed miserably in that regard.

And when did the PA present a "real" proposal? Middle of November.

 

[Ginu]

It has to be asked, why has Bettman, now that December has arrived, become so willing to make a deal? Where has this urgency been during this process? Why has everybody's time and money been wasted? If there is truth to the suggestion that he was given until December 1st to make a deal, and his goal was to squeeze the NHLPA as hard as he could until then to get the best deal possible for the owners, what is this bull$hit? I'm taking this report with a grain of salt but, even without it, why the sudden urgency now that we've hit December? I hope the story is revealed because someone's head has to be taken for this. All of the propaganda, fake negotiation, lack of give and take, fan stress, all to put up a charade until we hit a breaking point. If this is true, **** the NHL even if they come back.

 

[DL44]

Just reported on the Team 1040 that the PA tabled an offer?

Anyone else with details on this?

Edit:

Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl
After the BOG meetings, NHLPA presented NHL with a proposal. #TSN

 

[onlyalad]

And when did the PA present a "real" proposal? Middle of November.

Nope but maybe today

 

[Milky]

https://twitter.com/aaronward_nhl

 

[Some Other Flame]

And when did the PA present a "real" proposal? Middle of November.

Sure, if you want.

But the underlying point was that neither side were tripping over themselves to initiate discussions. The board seems to have picked up on Fehr pretty quickly but conveniently ignore Bettman and the owners intransigence when it comes to getting a deal done.

 

[Fugu]

Just reported on the Team 1040 that the PA tabled an offer?

Anyone else with details on this?

Edit:

Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl
After the BOG meetings, NHLPA presented NHL with a proposal. #TSN

Along with that:
NHL lockout optimism overblown

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/nhlbl...erblown_KrvdBFMKabic0bBINq6AGK?#axzz2ED5xEtD7

 

[sharks fan 209]

Any updates on the PA proposal?

 

[DL44]

Along with that:
NHL lockout optimism overblown

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/nhlbl...erblown_KrvdBFMKabic0bBINq6AGK?#axzz2ED5xEtD7

..hope raised by Tuesday’s owners/players meeting was irrational exuberance.


That's definite...

you have to agree considering people are planning the schedule structure already before any proposals have even been shared... just based on a productive meeting of constructive discussions.. its all about the PA proposal and how fast it gets shot down.

 

[Milky]

Any updates on the PA proposal?

(1) Nick Kypreos' report that coaches have started to contact players about a potentially imminent return;
(2) A Sportsnet report that suggests Gary Bettman wants a new CBA deal done by no later than Friday;

 

[DL44]

I think the best case scenario here will be... PA makes a proposal, owners take a recess to discuss, but don't reject it outright... instead follow it back up with their own proposal supported by the same positive approach they had going yesterday...

It's all about the WAY they message their needs and wants in their proposal... another outright rejection would be toxic at this point... i don't expect to see it unless they feel the players are leveraging THEM based on today's date...

 

[damacles1156]

The time to make a deal is now.

I think the players are smart enough to not let Donald Fehr run them down the road of a lost season.

They understand they can't lose another season.

I am betting the only thing the players are really against is the contract issues. RFA, UFA, Length. I am also willing to bet the owners are flexible on those contract issues.

 

[Riptide]

Nope but maybe today

I dunno about that. I would consider their offer (in fact the only full offer the PA has proposed) to be a real offer based on the fact that's the first time they got away from fixed amounts, and went to %+$. So while there's still obviously some things that would have to be changed (eg: fact PA's share can never go down, make whole, buyouts, long term deals and players retiring, etc), I was pretty disappointed that that offer didn't gain any traction at the negotiating table. But then I was disappointed when the leagues last offer with make whole didn't seem to gain any traction... so meh. Hopefully both sides decided enough is enough, and to both move a bit to get **** sorted out.

Just reported on the Team 1040 that the PA tabled an offer?
Anyone else with details on this?
Edit:
Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl
After the BOG meetings, NHLPA presented NHL with a proposal. #TSN

TSN indicated that an offer was presented to the NHL. But I haven't seen any details on it yet.

 

[schabadoo]

The time to make a deal is now.

I think the players are smart enough to not let Donald Fehr run them down the road of a lost season.

Yep, that mean old Donald Fehr trying to steamroll another group of players.

Maybe the owners can figure out a plan they actual want this time, so we don't go through this again in a few years.

 

[Goulet17]

The time to make a deal is now.

I think the players are smart enough to not let Donald Fehr run them down the road of a lost season.

They understand they can't lose another season.

I am betting the only thing the players are really against is the contract issues. RFA, UFA, Length. I am also willing to bet the owners are flexible on those contract issues.

The players are not negotiating with themselves. This is a two way street.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Both sides do want to lose anymore games, this much is clear.

I say a deal gets done, barring any PA antics, over the weekend at the latest

 

[damacles1156]

Yep, that mean old Donald Fehr trying to steamroll another group of players.

Maybe the owners can figure out a plan they actual want this time, so we don't go through this again in a few years.

The owners know exactly what they want (Profit) and they will get it.