Little Caesers Arena Thread II - Safety Mesh and an Ugly Roof

[Ezekial]

My father and I just refer to it as the Gordie Howe Arena. It works wonders for ignoring the other name...

But if you just say "the Gordie Howe" you won't be able to differentiate from the bridge!

 

[vladdy16]

Well you just outlined three of the things being put down there as a part of this project.

Do you really think Whole Foods expansion in Detroit was unaware of this project?

Hopefully it helps develop a lot of those things as a result of the project having a big impact. It is certainly a starting point for a long struggling area.

Not trying to rain on the parade, just saying if you want me to be impressed with what the Illitches did for the city with the property they've had forever, that clock has already run out, so I just don't buy into that narrative at all.

Can't really finish my thought here without feeling like I'm stepping out of the bounds of hockey related discussion, but would just say that the scale of the impact of 20,000 folks is so minor in comparison to the scale of a major us city, that I ain't got any pats on the back for anyone involved in what's essentialy a pet project.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Not trying to rain on the parade, just saying if you want me to be impressed with what the Illitches did for the city with the property they've had forever, that clock has already run out, so I just don't buy into that narrative at all.

Can't really finish my thought here without feeling like I'm stepping out of the bounds of hockey related discussion, but would just say that the scale of the impact of 20,000 folks is so minor in comparison to the scale of a major us city, that I ain't got any pats on the back for anyone involved in what's essentialy a pet project.

Yeah the fifth largest tax payer Ilitch Holdings in the city of Detroit is a real problem...

There isn't exactly a line out the door to invest in Detroit. Sorry to break that to the people that thought a unicorn was going to appear after 50 years of nothing in that direction. There are some people willing to throw money down there. Those groups make money, but their projects are driven for what they are and represent tangible growth in an area that has been terrible forever.

You don't have to pat them on the back. They do well off these operations. But you also don't need to pretend these mythical solutions of incredible noble projects are going to materialize either. They haven't for years. Lets take all that money Ilitch has back out to Garden City and some other suburban arena location and have even less money.

The Ilitch family and Gilbert don't deserve the scorn they get for attempting to fix areas that haven't had answers for a long time. Hey at least they are trying, even if they also are making a buck off of it and get benefits from the city or state while doing it.

The guy is a champion of the city of Detroit. The Ilitch family is investing 500 million dollars of private money. They went and got state money to help protect the city of Detroit. The way this project is being described bothers me greatly. Sorry I just don't think the Ilitch family is trying to pull a fast one on everyone. I do expect them to make money, but they have made plenty of money for the city of Detroit over the years as well. Remove them from the equation and how much worse does it get down there in all honesty?

 

[vladdy16]

Yeah the fifth largest tax payer Ilitch Holdings in the city of Detroit is a real problem...

There isn't exactly a line out the door to invest in Detroit. Sorry to break that to the people that thought a unicorn was going to appear after 50 years of nothing in that direction. There are some people willing to throw money down there. Those groups make money, but their projects are driven for what they are and represent tangible growth in an area that has been terrible forever.

You don't have to pat them on the back. They do well off these operations. But you also don't need to pretend these mythical solutions of incredible noble projects are going to materialize either. They haven't for years. Lets take all that money Ilitch has back out to Garden City and some other suburban arena location and have even less money.

The Ilitch family and Gilbert don't deserve the scorn they get for attempting to fix areas that haven't had answers for a long time. Hey at least they are trying.

The guy is a champion of the city of Detroit. The Ilitch family is investing 500 million dollars of private money. They went and got state money to help protect the city of Detroit. The way this project is being described bothers me greatly. Sorry I just don't think the Ilitch family is trying to pull a fast one on everyone. I do expect them to make money, but they have made plenty of money for the city of Detroit over the years as well.

Thank you for taking the time to articulte that. I 100% disagree with everything you said

I'm sure whenever I get a chance to go to the new place, it'll be a great night, and I'm sure there'll be an area that will catch my eye as something to be optimistic about. No reason not to try to make the best of it

 

[Reddwit]

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2017/09/12/how-the-ilitches-used-dereliction-by-design-to-get-their-new-detroit-arena

Came across this article serendipitously. Speaks a lot to the controversy surrounding the development that allegedly never would've happened without the Illitches.

Let's be mindful of the fact that one can praise many of their actions without endorsing all of them.

 

[vladdy16]

Let's be mindful of the fact that one can praise many of their actions without endorsing all of them.

Yes, I am happy to pass metaphorical/hypothetical judgement, but would never presume to know the intetions and effects of any individual(s) and how they go about their daily business.

Haha, that article is great though, I immediatly got grossed out and had to stop reading.

 

[Winger98]

That land was mostly abandon and rundown when he started acquiring it. I can only speak from 1972 onward as that is when my dad moved to town but it was a terrible part of town then....

So when the Ilitch's started buying land in the late 80's and early 90s and then saw outside groups buy land to start cashing in "lottery tickets" that had a lot to do with it.

Connecting the river to midtown at least gives hope that perhaps some of the young GM, QuickenLoans and Ford people will live in that area as opposed to Royal Oak. Of course spending several decades without a grocery store didn't help either....

I have a buddy a little younger than me that just bought a condo in this area. I asked him would he have done that without this development, his answer was a flat no. There is at least one tax payer and person feeding Detroit businesses that would still be hanging out in Royal Oak. Does that hit the study? I am not really sure. I think there will be a lot of examples like that. Again time will tell, but I am not willing to say this is a huge loss for the city. This project has tremendous value to the city of Detroit if done right. A big part of that will be how the politicians who have an incredibly spotty record make use of this momentum.

If you want more people to move then you're going to have to see the city and state start investing better in the non-sexy things like roads, housing, small businesses, etc. In the end, I hope the arena district thing helps shove Detroit in the right direction and the politicians you mention get their ducks in a row and start pushing Detroit forward.

I just haven't seen anything to lead me to believe the stadium(s) will be a driver in this. The local pols have to do their jobs a lot better, and a lot less selfishly.

There's more to this than bottom line profits, it's a million moving parts that all build toward does this development help the city enough to warrant a $250M price tag. I think it does.

If the city doesn't have a broader and deeper tax base you essentially have the same Detroit since the 68 riots.

 

[RabidBadger]

I have a buddy a little younger than me that just bought a condo in this area. I asked him would he have done that without this development, his answer was a flat no. There is at least one tax payer and person feeding Detroit businesses that would still be hanging out in Royal Oak. Does that hit the study? I am not really sure. I think there will be a lot of examples like that.

That's been my rub all along; people equating this project being a success for Detroit based on suburbanite standards. Building a insular community within the city that is populated by Royal Oak bruhs does not constitute tangible value to the city. Yeah, the tax base will increase marginally, but what else?

Is the tax base going to get Brightmoor cleaned up? Will it patch the leaky roofs in the schools, provide public transport to people in stressed areas (please do not mention the Q line) to work all the great jobs this arena will create? If that is the case, then it's all worth it. On the other hand, if, say, The Old Miami gets turned into a Starbucks and the rest of Detroit continues to decay then the scam will be evident.

I haven't seen a windfall of success stories with the advent of Comerica and Ford Field, so you'll have to pardon me if I'm not optimistic about this one. I also worry about the small businesses in the area that have toiled on to try make the area decent for many years. I will definitely pre-game at Harry's, one of the places that has stuck around in the area through thick and thin.

 

[Ezekial]

A 324 million dollar investment by the State has brought 2.2 billion dollars worth of development to the city. Seems like a good trade off.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That's been my rub all along; people equating this project being a success for Detroit based on suburbanite standards. Building a insular community within the city that is populated by Royal Oak bruhs does not constitute tangible value to the city. Yeah, the tax base will increase marginally, but what else?

Is the tax base going to get Brightmoor cleaned up? Will it patch the leaky roofs in the schools, provide public transport to people in stressed areas (please do not mention the Q line) to work all the great jobs this arena will create? If that is the case, then it's all worth it. On the other hand, if, say, The Old Miami gets turned into a Starbucks and the rest of Detroit continues to decay then the scam will be evident.

I haven't seen a windfall of success stories with the advent of Comerica and Ford Field, so you'll have to pardon me if I'm not optimistic about this one. I also worry about the small businesses in the area that have toiled on to try make the area decent for many years. I will definitely pre-game at Harry's, one of the places that has stuck around in the area through thick and thin.

I am not sure basing the value on Detroit standards of years past is really a good goal. Millennials like to live in downtown areas, young professionals like to live in downtown areas. For years this city has had a poor recruiting tool there, heck it has also helped many of us flee the area we grew up in as well. Getting more to do so in Detroit or stay in the Detroit area hopefully downtown should be a big goal. It has been a problem for the city since the riots.

I don't think the entertainment district fixes it alone. But it certainly provides an opportunity to continue rebuilding Detroit. Midtown wasn't very nice either 20 years ago and it has rebounded. You are starting to see a potential rebound in the Woodward Corridor, connecting parts of downtown.

But the big thing will be can the Politicians downtown grow something out of this investment. I am hopeful that they can, this kind of investment isn't presented to Detroit often. It is a big opportunity, I hope the city doesn't squander it and I hope that it has a positive impact on the community around.

Turning parts of decayed Detroit around is the goal. Growing your tax base is a part of the goal. We will see, perhaps in 15 years we can be talking about what a scam this was. It is still the kind of thing I like seeing go into Detroit and I am hopeful they can capitalize on.

 

[vladdy16]

Two great posts RB and TZE.

 

[RabidBadger]

I am not sure basing the value on Detroit standards of years past is really a good goal. Millennials like to live in downtown areas, young professionals like to live in downtown areas. For years this city has had a poor recruiting tool there, heck it has also helped many of us flee the area we grew up in as well. Getting more to do so in Detroit or stay in the Detroit area hopefully downtown should be a big goal. It has been a problem for the city since the riots.

I don't think the entertainment district fixes it alone. But it certainly provides an opportunity to continue rebuilding Detroit. Midtown wasn't very nice either 20 years ago and it has rebounded. You are starting to see a potential rebound in the Woodward Corridor, connecting parts of downtown.

But the big thing will be can the Politicians downtown grow something out of this investment. I am hopeful that they can, this kind of investment isn't presented to Detroit often. It is a big opportunity, I hope the city doesn't squander it and I hope that it has a positive impact on the community around.

Turning parts of decayed Detroit around is the goal. Growing your tax base is a part of the goal. We will see, perhaps in 15 years we can be talking about what a scam this was. It is still the kind of thing I like seeing go into Detroit and I am hopeful they can capitalize on.

I think we have different definitions of the "Detroit model" of rebuilding. For me, your second paragraph firmly encapsulates the Detroit model and it has been an excellent effort by people who care. It was people who started small businesses in places like Midtown and Corktown, made ithem prosperous communities. They basically turned nothing into something. And they did it without being corporate welfare hags as well. It's not as grandiose as a multi-million investment, but it's ultimately more meaningful for community building. These people invested themselves in the area as opposed to the Illitches who will just look at profit margins in their displaced ivory tower.

I feel pretty certain if there was a referendum among Detroiters on how to allocate the state funds, it surely would not go to the arena.

I'm not going to argue your points on rebuilding piece-meal or culpability of politicians. Detroit has enough abandoned space to fit the entire city of San Francisco in. That will take time to deal with. The politicians don't need mentioning for their ineptitude. Just look at the failed prison sight next to Greektown for exhibit A (because building a prison next to one of your biggest tourist area is a great idea to start with).

If it turns out as you hope, I will gladly eat my crow. History doesn't suggest billionares' playgrounds have that effect.

 

[GBFP]

This really says it all -

At the end day, the deal wasn't good for Detroit taxpayers, but there's evidence that was by design, too. The city's two lead negotiators in the arena deal quit their posts to work for Ilitch's organization a year after the deal was done.

 

[Bench]

That's so shady. Basically the same as when former congressmen immediately get jobs with oil or pharmaceutical companies.

 

[avssuc]

Yes, I am happy to pass metaphorical/hypothetical judgement, but would never presume to know the intetions and effects of any individual(s) and how they go about their daily business.

Haha, that article is great though, I immediatly got grossed out and had to stop reading.

I'm with you on all of your posts here. While unpopular, I'm sure that there are plenty of folks reading and nodding along without reply. This sort of vulture capitalism can't sustain.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

A 324 million dollar investment by the State has brought 2.2 billion dollars worth of development to the city. Seems like a good trade off.

Source?

 

[Ezekial]

Source?

The article I linked you before, I edited a quote from the article into my previous post later since I didn't think anyone would click it and read it anyway.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/articl...caesars-arena-construction-cost-862-9-million

Olympia has stated that its District Detroit project already has $2.2 billion in total investment, meaning it has reached the threshold to qualify for the DDA-backed subsidy, which will be paid after the public bonds are paid off. The bond maturity date was extended to 2050-51 as part of the contract approved Tuesday.

By the time all of the arena bonds are paid off, borrowing costs and interest will have pushed the arena's price tag to beyond $1 billion.

The public bonds will be paid off by the tax capture mechanism, and the Olympia bonds and private financing will be paid via revenue created by the arena, such as games and concerts. Olympia, under the financing deal, keeps all revenue generated by the arena — a departure from its current deal with the city for Joe Louis Arena, where Olympia in the past has paid rent and surrendered revenue in the form of ticket charges and other fees.
Under the financing deal for the new arena, downtown companies will foot much of the property tax bill used to pay off the public bonds, including Quicken Loans Inc., General Motors Co., Olympia Entertainment and real estate firms such as Southfield-based Redico LLC.

The Illitches are making out in this for sure, but they are also putting a lot of investment into it on many sides.

 

[izlez]

This is the most in depth series of pictures I have seen of the new arena so far:
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index...front_and_last_row_vi.html#incart_river_index

It looks absolutely amazing in every single way. Makes it even more frustrating that people are only worried about a roof and a name

 

[vladdy16]

It looks absolutely amazing in every single way. Makes it even more frustrating that people are only worried about a roof and a name

...I don't think that's where the concern lies at all.

Love the red seats. Starting to sink in what a trip it's gonna be.

 

[jkutswings]

This is the most in depth series of pictures I have seen of the new arena so far:
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index...front_and_last_row_vi.html#incart_river_index

It looks absolutely amazing in every single way. Makes it even more frustrating that people are only worried about a roof and a name

More like having a beautiful wrapper (the new barn) for a lousy product (the roster).

 

[chances14]

ken kal just referred to little ceasers arena as joe louis arena in pregame perriscope. I wonder how many times mickey will have to correct himself this year lol

 

[Ulysses31]

Pizzahouse is a good nickname IMO

 

[stu the grim reaper]

will they/do they have open practices at the practice rink?

 

[Henkka]

Pizzahouse is a good nickname IMO

Our used nickname with my friends is "oven".

 

[TheMule93]

the nickname ive been using is the LCA

because L is from the L in "little"

the C is from the C in "Caesars"

and the A is from the A in "Arena"