List your Team's Bad Contracts

kthx

Bedard to Bruins 2023
Apr 24, 2019
2,471
3,124
Whoever thinks Krejcis contract is bad hoooly shit. Have you ever looked who he plays with on a daily basis? A mix between AHLers, Ritchies and DeBrusk.
Comparing to Bergerons line every contract in NHL is bad.

Bruins have 0 bad contracts at the moment.

EDIT: Forgot about Moore, he is the bad apple.
 

Alexander the Gr8

Registered User
May 2, 2013
31,818
13,141
Toronto
Capitals:

Oshie (33) 5 years left at $5.75M AAV...Seattle, you’re more than welcome to take him next June

Backstrom (32) 5 years left at $9.2M AAV...overpaid him after he was a bargain for 10 years

Kuznetsov (28) 5 years left at $7.8M AAV...not great, not terrible.

Carlson (30) 6 years left at $8M AAV...has been a bargain in years 1-2; won’t age well

Schultz (30) 2 years left at $4M AAV...yeah, no idea what we were thinking here.

You’re missing Hagelin and the list is complete. Kuznetsov could be OK if he finally gets his head out of his ass again.
 
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RVACapsFan

Registered User
May 31, 2018
439
728
You’re missing Hagelin and the list is complete. Kuznetsov could be OK if he finally gets his head out of his ass again.
3 years left at $2.75M AAV...I don’t hate it (yet). Hagelin is a fantastic penalty killer, provides a ton of speed on the fourth line and is a great locker room guy. If he could score he’d be a top 6 winger; he just can’t finish to save his life.
 

Go Wings

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
6,203
4,191
Chatham, ON
After buying out Abdelkader the only really bad one left is Nielsen at a ridiculous 5.25 million a year for 2 more years.

Betting he gets bought out in 2nd buyout phase or after next season.
 
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ponder

Registered User
Jul 11, 2007
16,969
6,306
Vancouver
Leafs:
  • Kessel retention (2 years, $1.2 mil AAV) is the only clear one
  • Kerfoot (3 years, $3.5 mil AAV) is borderline - not sure if he has positive or negative value
Otherwise some would argue Tavares/Marner, but they’re both elite-ish players. Paid more than I’d like, but I wouldn’t consider them bad contracts. Marner still has huge positive trade value, and Tavares light positive trade value, a bad contract should have negative trade value.
 

LokiDog

Get pucks deep. Get pucks to the net. And, uh…
Sep 13, 2018
11,665
22,914
Dallas
Only Brendan Smith is left now! One month ago would have had Marc Staal and Hank on the books as well.

Personally, Kreider at 6.5Mx7 may not be a bad contract, and would have probably aged pretty well if the cap had continued trending up, but isn’t pretty with the flat cap. Likewise, Trouba needs to really show something (of which he showed the potential to do last year) in order to justify being an 8M defender for the next 7 years.

Neither is a “bad” contract right now but when Kakko, Fox, Shesterkin, Lafreniere and Zibanejad start needing new deals, we’d better hope Trouba is looking a lot more like a 1B and a lot less like a #3.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
79,203
54,476
They don’t have bad contracts like other teams, where they pay an enormous amount to a third or fourth line guy. They do have guys that are overpaid by quite a bit. Nylander signed for almost a million over what his market value was at the time he signed. His comparables were Pastrnak and Ehlers. Marner signed for 10.893 after putting up 94 points (26 G/68 A), whereas Kucherov signed for 9.5 after putting up 100 points (39 G/61A). Goals are more valuable than assists, and Marner played on a line with John Tavares.

Outside of those two, everyone makes what they’re worth or slightly less than what they’re worth.

Think of it another way. Teams that have an overpaid 3rd or 4th line guy like a Loui Eriksson and a Jay Beagle would probably be happy to trade them both and replace them with a John Tavares, but Toronto isn't looking to take a Tavares contract and turn it into an Eriksson and Beagle, especially when it looks like players are now willing to come here very cheap.

You could certainly make the argument that if Toronto's Big 4 each left a couple of million on the table we could have a Big 5, but overall not a lot of teams have a perfect cap.
 

WhatTheDuck

9 - 20 - 8
May 17, 2007
23,251
15,831
Worst Case, Ontario
:ducks

David Backes - 1 year 4.5M cap hit, 4M salary

Ryan Kesler - 2 years 6.875M (LTIR, Ducks only on hook for 20%)

^ In my opinion the only contracts the Ducks have that are overpayment enough to for the player to be considered to have negative value.

Henrique, Fowler and Silfverberg all have contracts large enough to turn bad but they are currently earning their salary. The only other larger contract is Gibson who is a bargain at 6.4M long term.
 

PettersonHughes

Registered User
Aug 26, 2020
1,585
677
Hickey
Boychuk's contract is bad now...but I wouldn't say it was a bad contract overall as he was really good for years on it.

Surprised about Hickey, guess he looks bad with Pelech and Leddy in top-4 LD and esp. if he ends up costing the team Pulock or Barzal? In a vacuum his $2.5 million isn't too bad given his play, is it?
 

North Cole

♧ Lem
Jan 22, 2017
11,549
12,964
Let us know then.

Kessel, Tavares (based on risk), Brodie.

Reasoning:
- Kessel goes without saying, that was a horrific retention, I also think all buyouts are bad. Regardless of size, all dead cap is awful IMO.
- Tavares internally is the worst of the big 4, highest term and second highest dollars to the oldest player. Fortunately, it has massive step downs and may end as a positive value contract if he doesn't fall apart in the next few years. Considering "value" as both on-ice and off-ice, it was probably positive in the first year due to huge Merch/sponsorship revenue, but I think the middle (this year and next) of the contract will hurt more than the end. The bad of the contract is alleviated with the off-ice value, but I penalize it for the risk involved and internal comparisons (though most UFA contracts stack up poorly against internal contracts).
- Brodie for the same reasons as Tavares, but he doesn't have the same off-ice value for the Org which saves some of the Tavares contract. He fixes a need, but I think the cost stacks up poorly against Muzz and Rielly, similar to Krejci's contract vs the contracts of the first line.

Overall I think the Matthews contract is quite good for Toronto specifically, and of the three had the best ROI on early contract cashflows. I think it would be less good in most other markets. I think Marner is bordering on bad and would be less so if you took 1M off, but I like the lower term of both of these contracts, based on my other post in this thread which I will link below in the event you want to read it (does have a TL;DR). I think from a long term cap management POV, 5/6 year contracts are an interesting tool and they also go against the prevailing view, which is also nice to see. It also makes sense to me from a treasury and finance point of view, but many only focus on the asset management and the idea that young superstars should be locked in as long as possible.

I'm interested to see the Leafs offseason next year with the number of UFA, and what happens with the goalie situation.

Long post below:
TL;DR at the bttom. Sorry for the delay. It is a false premise, but one I'm comfortable making on the basis of both contract/cap management and probability for the following reasons (long post - hopefully grammar is well enough, don't really have time to proof as I'm at work):

The majority of teams manage cap like a short term prepaid expense, rather than a long term investment. This is a result of different goals over different time horizons, and I'd argue the $AAV (cap hit) amount of individual contracts is less important to a GM than the overall liability at a given time. Term is more important than $. PV principals apply to the cash outlay of NHL contracts, but the NHL does it backwards - this is true because most contracts are front-end loaded. Present value of money is that it is worth more today, than in the future. So although the cash going out in the early years of the contract is higher and this is bad from a PV perspective, minimizing cap space each year increases the likelihood of receiving as much money back as possible from escrow. Since most GMs try to minimize cap space, it benefits the league in the short term as more money is recovered on aggregate (since most teams are above the midpoint, and this year obviously revenue got chunked - obviously the HRR/escrow calc is more onerous than presented here).

Team aggregate cap is made up of a bunch of tranches (levels of contracts) based on time remaining on contract - Time = 1, 2, and 3, up to a maximum of 8 years. Looking at contracts by payback period, where the value being paid-back is on ice results or some other metric which is non-monetary. Most NHL contracts should maximize payback over the first half of the contract, where the player is hopefully in their prime and at their most productive. Going back to the PV, you should be able to get away with higher upfront costs if - ("value received" > Current cash - escrow recovered). Obviously this analysis will be dependent on what exactly you use to measure value - whether points, advanced stats, etc. If you have maximized your value when the cash outlays are high in the short term, then the contract is easier to sell in second half of the contract, since by a PV method - ("value received" > Current cash - escrow recovered) - should still be true for the team buying the contract.
EDIT - I do want to add in the tranche management is more important than individual contract management - because it denotes the expected liability year over year, which is super simple to forecast. Since the aggregate liability cannot be less than the cap floor, bad contracts here or there are not going to ruin cap management on their own. Tranche management also gives you more visibility regarding ELC, RFA, UFA needs - since these are all different types of contracts and carry different risks (Arbitration, age, etc). Contracts should be viewed in aggregate long term, and individually short term. It's a weird balance.​

per this source - Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports - average escrow was 9.5% 2018-19. For the below, assume NHL recovered 100% of the escrow and it was the same for last year. Escrow is withheld on the cash payment, not a cap hit basis.
Simple Example - Connor McDavid (19-20 cash outlay = 14M, cap hit = 12M) Age = 23
9.5% of his cash outlay was 1.33M.
So for Connor McDavid - was the value received by the franchise > 14M - 1.33M last year? This can be through sponsorship, merch, on-ice results (top 2 in points), etc. I would argue yes, arbitrarily it was (Obviously you would a better definition of value received, were you to do the analysis for real).​
This contract will expire when he is 28 years old and at age 26ish, the cash outlay is 11m, which is 1m less than the cap hit. Using the same calc and assumptions, would this contract be worthwhile to buy? IE - will the value received by the team buying the contract > 11M - escrow. The answer is probably yes, so this would be a favourable contract. Obviously this is super simple for the top 3 player in the world over the life of his first RFA contract, who is also young and in his prime. You can see some instances where this might not be true for players who are 30 and the value being received is already dipping. A contract like Weber might actually still be worthwhile to buy near the end, since actual cash in the end of his contract will be 1M. Although the cap is extreme (7m) and his value as a 40 whatever old might not be good, the questions - will it be worse than 1M less escrow? Maybe not. This is why we see places like Arizon and Ottawa collect these contracts. Obviously most of this intuitive at first glance.

What this has to do with my point is - The goal of short term (yearly) cap management is to maximize ROI, where the investment is fixed anywhere from the cap floor to the cap ceiling. Each year you measure what value is being returned against the basis of this years cap hit only. Every year it changes this changes as contracts slide in and out of positive value and new contracts are signed. Accumulating as many positive value contracts is the start of recognizing good ROI year in and out. This can be as simple as singing Joe Thornton for league minimum to sell jerseys and make money - is he going to provide the push to create playoff gate revenue? The Leafs already create gate revenue on their own, so no. However, it is a positive value contract for the Leafs. Last year - Tyson Barrie was not, since anyone can probably tell you that his on-ice value received was less than the cash outlay.

However, the goal of long term cap management is to minimize future liability, since you don't want to become over-levered on contracts which start to show negative ROI in the current short term (from the perspective where "current" refers to years 6, 7, 8, 9). If the contracts have positive value in the later years, they can be offloaded, but in cases like Lucic, Eriksson, etc - they cannot be sold without short term losses (draft picks, etc - see Marleau). Unless a contract is heavily skewed with front loaded payments, most contracts will start to show negative value near the end, since a players on-ice value generally drops quicker than the backend payments of a front-loaded contract. This is dangerous in the short term since front loading too much leaves you vulnerable to heavy recapture, and it's harder for the contract to be positive in the beginning. NHL also has rules about how far the expenditure can be from the AAV to avoid this stuff.

These are incongruous goals - the short term goal of minimizing cap space to fill out the roster since cap space expires every year + getting a mulligan from escrow VS trying to leave room to replace contracts you can't forecast for and avoiding dead weight down the road - like a Pettersson, or Draisaitl, etc. GMs also face pressure from the fans or the media if they sit around letting 8m of cap space go to waste every year. All of these things together, IMO, result in every team having at least one bad contract - it's inevitable that something you signed in the past will at some point no longer have positive value. Rarer occasions like a Josh Anderson contract exist, where the contract might not even have positive value the day it was signed. With these principals in mind, it's actually not a guaranteed failure that Dubas signed Matthews/Marner to shorter contracts - which is something many people hold against him. It goes against the prevailing school of thought, that young kids should automatically be locked up with the key thrown away, but from a financial point of view - it does de-lever the org in the mid term. I'm on the fence whether they are bad contracts from a "value to the org" point of view - since the Leafs make tonnes of money off those guys, and they perform well. However - if you don't look at income generated from the players, the Marner contract is a candidate for a bad contract. Depends what you use to define - "value received", which is subjective based on the goals of the organization. Like it or not, the goals of the Leafs may not be primarily to win a cup, it may be to maximize revenue; with the exception of on-ice results, these teams do not compete against each other in business. They are all in the same boat together - so having orgs like the Sens who clean the tank and inherit high cap hit, low dollar contracts is a good thing, it allows orgs like the Leafs to offload these high cap contracts and sign high dollar contracts - which help to increase escrowed amounts. The Leafs also like to clean up a lot of LTIR garbage for the league, it's very much like a big fish tank.

TL;DR -
The short term goal of minimizing cap space to fill out the roster since cap space expires every year, where you also get a mulligan from escrow vs trying to leave room to replace contracts you can't forecast for - like a Pettersson, or Draisaitl, etc. GMs also face pressure from the fans or the media if they sit around letting 8m of cap space go to waste every year. All of these things together, IMO, result in every team having at least one bad contract - it's inevitable that something you signed in the past will at some point no longer have positive value. It's also possible IMO to have bad contracts that are 2 years, rather than the general feeling where people say - "term isn't bad, so there's no risk".

To answer your question about Boston - the David Krejci contract is bad. It's not the worst contract in the league obviously, but compared to value received from him versus the value from the top line players, who are all signed for less - I think internally that's a bad contract.
 

NoMessi

Registered User
Jan 2, 2009
1,697
453
Pittsburgh Penguins

My opinion the pens board is all over what is bad or what is good.

Matheson - 4.88 x 6
Potential to become a #4 and may really help the pens with what the struggle with at times. His advanced stats show solid zone exits hope he can keep that up.
May not be a bad contract but we traded Hornqvist for him.


Petterson - 4.03 x 4
He regressed and still was given this contract.
If he steps it up a bit it won't be bad.

Some say Tanev is bad I disagree. Guy brings a lot and plays hard every game.

Jack Johnson got bought out so we no longer have that anchor. I don't hate the guy a 1 year 1 million player not a 3+ million #7 and hope he plays well enough on the Rangers to get another year.

The next year or 2 we will see what happens lots of opportunity for bad contracts.

Which is an addition by subtraction. He was not himself anymore and got old.
 

Toews2Bickell

It's Showtime
Nov 24, 2013
23,418
23,345
brent-seabrook-2019-35.jpg
 

Sypher04

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
11,662
9,964
Leafs don’t have any “bad” contracts.

I’d say Matthews, Marner and Tavares are all overpaid though. I’d say their total overpayment equals about 5 mill. 1.5 mill Matthews. 2 mill Tavares and 1.5 mill Marner. Pretty much the same as carrying a Okposo, Lucic, Neal, Ericsson etc..

That's pretty questionable honestly.

Tavares cannot be legitimately regarded as overpaid when other teams, such as the Isles and Sharks are documented as offering him more than the Leafs signed him for.

I think Marner is overpaid by about as much as you say, while Matthews I would argue you have exaggerated at least a bit.

Combined between the 3 is likely no worse than 2.5m.. that said, you could still get a decently useful player for that
 

Islay1989

Registered User
Feb 24, 2020
3,840
3,322
Think of it another way. Teams that have an overpaid 3rd or 4th line guy like a Loui Eriksson and a Jay Beagle would probably be happy to trade them both and replace them with a John Tavares, but Toronto isn't looking to take a Tavares contract and turn it into an Eriksson and Beagle, especially when it looks like players are now willing to come here very cheap.

You could certainly make the argument that if Toronto's Big 4 each left a couple of million on the table we could have a Big 5, but overall not a lot of teams have a perfect cap.

Players are coming cheap everywhere. It's the nature of the cap world we are living in.
 

Leafs87

Mr. Steal Your Job
Aug 10, 2010
14,786
4,867
Toronto
That's pretty questionable honestly.

Tavares cannot be legitimately regarded as overpaid when other teams, such as the Isles and Sharks are documented as offering him more than the Leafs signed him for.

I think Marner is overpaid by about as much as you say, while Matthews I would argue you have exaggerated at least a bit.

Combined between the 3 is likely no worse than 2.5m.. that said, you could still get a decently useful player for that

I know others were offering more. That’s no secret. Clarkson, Lucic were both offered more during their FA period. That doesn’t change the fact that they are still overpaid.

Tavares is a very difficult one to judge. I guess it comes down to personal preference. I personally don’t see anything in his body of work that points to 11 mill. Before or after the contract. His comparables are earning less. He’s more or less a PPG Center with seasons where he doesn’t even hit PPG. He doesn’t pass the eye test very well.

End of the day, traditionally competitive teams wouldn’t be overpaying the way Toronto has. Chicago did I guess. On second contracts after that core has shown to be proven winners. But Toews and Kane making 10.5 was offset by Keith, Hossa, and Seabrook being on cap circumvented deals
 

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