Lines for Team Canada

[Zaddik]

i think it shows the intelligence one has when someone sticks bertuzzi as a spare or a third or fourth line plugger.

are you people seriously ignorant in thinking bertuzzi does not deserve at least second line placement? the man is unstoppable when coming off the wing driving to the net, and he finishes perfectly, not to mention being able to play wing and centre making him flexible.

 

[Phanuthier*]

i think it shows the intelligence one has when someone sticks bertuzzi as a spare or a third or fourth line plugger.

are you people seriously ignorant in thinking bertuzzi does not deserve at least second line placement? the man is unstoppable when coming off the wing driving to the net, and he finishes perfectly, not to mention being able to play wing and centre making him flexible.

As ignorant as putting Lecavlier and St Louis on there?

Or Brad Richards, Joe Sakic, Simon Gagne, Rick Nash or Joe Thornton there?

 

[Zaddik]

As ignorant as putting Lecavlier and St Louis on there?

Or Brad Richards, Joe Sakic, Simon Gagne, Rick Nash or Joe Thornton there?

so what's your point?

 

[wildone26*]

i think it shows the intelligence one has when someone sticks bertuzzi as a spare or a third or fourth line plugger.

are you people seriously ignorant in thinking bertuzzi does not deserve at least second line placement? the man is unstoppable when coming off the wing driving to the net, and he finishes perfectly, not to mention being able to play wing and centre making him flexible.

It sounds like you are describing the Bertuzzi of the 02-03 and 03-04 seasons moreso than the Bertuzzi of this season. He is playing better of late, but must continue to peak for the Olympics to be a big asset on a top 2 line.

 

[Zaddik]

As ignorant as putting Lecavlier and St Louis on there?

Or Brad Richards, Joe Sakic, Simon Gagne, Rick Nash or Joe Thornton there?

so what's your point? if your point being is that those players deserve to be there before bertuzzi then there is something amiss here. none, with the exception of rick nash or joe thornton have the absolute brute power of bertuzzi. bertuzzi is on his game, he can steam roll thru anyone. the man is capable of being the backbone of the scoring on this team. and designating him on the fourth line with fourth line minutes is pathetic.

 

[wildone26*]

so what's your point? if your point being is that those players deserve to be there before bertuzzi then there is something amiss here. none, with the exception of rick nash or joe thornton have the absolute brute power of bertuzzi. bertuzzi is on his game, he can steam roll thru anyone. the man is capable of being the backbone of the scoring on this team. and designating him on the fourth line with fourth line minutes is pathetic.

Then be prepared for your version of what would be "pathetic" since that is probably where he will be, either a 4th liner or 13th forward. No way will any of Thornton, Heatley, Iginla, Gagne, Sakic, not be on a top 3 line, that is a gaurantee. Richards and LeCavalier always play together, so probably wont be split up. St. Louis cant be used on a 4th line, and he wont be the 13th forward, so he will be on a top 3 line too. Nash will probably be put with Thornton, since that seems to be one of the rehashed excuses to have him on the team. So that leaves Doan, Draper, Bertuzzi, and Smyth as the 4th line, and 13th forward.

 

[Phanuthier*]

so what's your point? if your point being is that those players deserve to be there before bertuzzi then there is something amiss here. none, with the exception of rick nash or joe thornton have the absolute brute power of bertuzzi. bertuzzi is on his game, he can steam roll thru anyone. the man is capable of being the backbone of the scoring on this team. and designating him on the fourth line with fourth line minutes is pathetic.

My point is there is alot of great players on this team, and someone's gonna be on the 3rd line.

You'd think an "intelligent one" would realize that

 

[Burnaby_Joe*]

Gagne Sakic Iginla
Richards Lecavalier St.Louis
Nash Thornton Heatley
Smyth Draper Doan
Bertuzzi

Niedermayer Foote
Jovo Blake
Pronger Regehr
Redden

 

[Maken*]

Gagne - Sakic - Iginla
Nash - Thornton - Heatley
Richards - Lecavalier - Bertuzzi
Smyth - Draper - Doan
St. Louis

Pronger - Blake
Redden - Niedermayer
Foote - Regehr
Jovanovski

Broduer
Luongo
Turco

 

[kruezer]

i think it shows the intelligence one has when someone sticks bertuzzi as a spare or a third or fourth line plugger.

I'm not picking on you specifically Zaddik, but this mentality that when a player is on a third or fourth liner on the Olympic team that means everyone is treating him as a plugger is ridiculous, having four dynamite lines that can play well at both ends is the idea I think, and having players who can play in every situation is key (which is why I am a bit against the picking of Draper over Marleau, Spezza and Staal)

 

[Zaddik]

My point is there is alot of great players on this team, and someone's gonna be on the 3rd line.

You'd think an "intelligent one" would realize that

so i'm guessing you're one of those "intelligent people" that i've pointed out in my first post in this thread.

yes there's going to be alot of great players on this team - this is team canada after all - but from what i've seen on most of the line propositions, they offer either too little or not enough that bertuzzi offers, and that is power and the projection of being unstoppable, an important function of a winning combination. now when you plug someone with such skills on a fourth line and limit him to fourth line minutes, you are guilty of marginalizing someone.

why doesn't anyone stick sakic on the fourth line? oh i know, because they think he's too good for the fourth line (keep your pants on boys, i'm not knocking sakic).

Careful boys, Zaddick will be mad and say your stupid if you don't have Bertuzzi on the 1st line.

wah

 

[Phanuthier*]

so i'm guessing you're one of those "intelligent people" that i've pointed out in my first post in this thread.

yes there's going to be alot of great players on this team - this is team canada after all - but from what i've seen on most of the line propositions, they offer either too little or not enough that bertuzzi offers, and that is power and the projection of being unstoppable, an important function of a winning combination. now when you plug someone with such skills on a fourth line and limit him to fourth line minutes, you are guilty of marginalizing someone.

You mean besides Iginla (1st line... I think he should be a 13th forward, but besides the point), Rick Nash (2nd line), Joe Thornton (2nd line) or Dany Heatley (2nd line)?

Yeah, no power there.

Personally, I don't even think Todd Bertuzzi should be there at all. His spot, along with Doan and Draper should have gone to Marleau, Spezza and Staal if it were up to me.

 

[Phanuthier*]

nash on the 2nd line? you have to be kidding me. bertuzzi replaces nash on the 2nd line if you want to maximize the physical factor.

Why? Rick Nash co-lead the league in goals last season with 41. Bertuzzi? 17. Rick Nash was Canada's best player in the World Championships, playing on a dominating line with Thornton. Bertuzzi? I can't even remember when was the last time he played in an international tournament. Now why the heck would you knock a co-league leading scorer and experianced international player in favour of a guy who shouldn't even be on the team according to many?

and in reference to your attempt at a rebuttal, there have been suggestions that the tampa bay line should have been on the 2nd. dany heatley, joe thornton and todd bertuzzi should be the 2nd line if not the first line.

What's the difference?

If I said my lines were:
Doan - Draper - Bertuzzi
St Louis - Lecavlier - Richards
Nash - Thornton - Heatly
Gagne - Sakic - Iginla

Would you feel any better?

right. I wouldn't want a GM like you managing team canada anytime soon.

... ok... nice attempt at a insult. Cute.


Might I add, this year's points:
Staal 26 G, 51 P
Spezza 13 G, 47 P
Marleau 14 G, 41 P

Todd Bertuzzi? 12 G, 36 P.

You sure showed me.

 

[Zaddik]

Why? Rick Nash co-lead the league in goals last season with 41. Bertuzzi? 17. Rick Nash was Canada's best player in the World Championships, playing on a dominating line with Thornton. Bertuzzi? I can't even remember when was the last time he played in an international tournament. Now why the heck would you knock a co-league leading scorer and experianced international player in favour of a guy who shouldn't even be on the team according to many?

Not long ago (maybe two seasons ago) Bertuzzi had how many goals? can't bother to dig up the statistics on how many but they were a bloody lot more than 41. now you'll probably think, the past is irrelevant but that is exactly my point. Bertuzzi is playing miles better than Nash at the moment and that would logically mean Bertuzzi would be a perfect fit as one of the primary offensive threats to the team.

No international experience be darned: bertuzzi belongs on the team because of his skill set. Yes Nash was on a great line with heatley and thorton, but when you can improve on a position, its best you do. and who says heatley or thorton will be on the second line? it's hypothetical and cannot be certain until Quinn does his magic. the point being, Bertuzzi has to have top six minutes among forwards on the team and judging by his play and his abilities, this should be a no brainer.

What's the difference?

If I said my lines were:
Doan - Draper - Bertuzzi
St Louis - Lecavlier - Richards
Nash - Thornton - Heatly
Gagne - Sakic - Iginla

Would you feel any better?

you're looking smarter everytime you post. by the way, how old are you? dont' answer that, i think i already know.

i think it's standard for most people to assume that the top two lines are the main offensive lines that will be utilized when it comes to critical moments in the game to score goals.

nice attempt at something witty but you failed miserably.

... ok... nice attempt at a insult. Cute.


Might I add, this year's points:
Staal 26 G, 51 P
Spezza 13 G, 47 P
Marleau 14 G, 41 P

Todd Bertuzzi? 12 G, 36 P.

You sure showed me.

So? Since you're a flames fan, how many points does Iginla have? you should know the number. your argument here is unsound as there are players on the team that have lower point totals than them yet the players listed above either lack the maturity or were seen as not being the best.

and btw, marleau is a centre so really, he does not apply to bertuzzi's situation. perhaps the other players you mentioned but not bertuzzi.

 

[Phanuthier*]

Not long ago Bertuzzi had how many goals? can't bother to dig up the statistics on how many but they were a bloody lot more than 41.

46, actually.

now you'll probably think, the past is irrelevant but that is exactly my point. Bertuzzi is playing miles better than Nash at the moment and that would logically mean Bertuzzi would be a perfect fit as one of the primary offensive threats to the team.
.

I don't think so

No international experience be darned: bertuzzi belongs on the team because of his skill set. Yes Nash was on a great line with heatley and thorton, but when you can improve on a position, its best you do. and who says heatley or thorton will be on the second line? it's hypothetical and cannot be certain until Quinn does his magic. the point being, Bertuzzi has to have top six minutes among forwards on the team and judging by his play and his abilities, this should be a no brainer.

You mean the skill set he scored 17 goals with?

you're looking smarter everytime you post. by the way, how old are you? dont' answer that, I can probably guess easily.

A couple days short of 21. 3rd year Electrical Engineer if you wanted to know too.

i think it's standard for most people to assume that the top two lines are the main offensive lines that will be utilized when it comes to critical moments in the game to score goals.

And Bertuzzi, a 17 goal scorer, should be a go-to guy? Is he rocking the world with his consistancy?

With a loaded team with the likes of Gagne, Nash, Thornton, Lecavlier and Richards, Bertuzzi wouldn't be on the ice for me when my team needs a goal.

So? Since you're a flames fan, how many points does Iginla have? you should know the number. your argument here is unsound as there are players on the team that have lower point totals than them yet the players listed above either lack the maturity or were seen as not being the best.

My argument is unsound? Huh? I said Iginla should be the 13th forward on that roster, and right now shouldn't even be on the team.

Nice reading skills though

 

[hockeyfan125]

As critical as I was towards Bertuzzi for October and the early part of November, he has been the most dominant player on the ice for either team in the last 10 games I have seen.

The way he can stickhandle by defenders, and then use his massive frame as a shield, not many (any?) other players in the NHL are capable of it.

He also proved he could play a decent centre position, and even broke up a number of plays in the defensive zone. One thing about his game that is underrated is his skating. He is a great skater irregardless of his size, and then the combination of them makes him that much more dangerous.

I wouldn't be suprised to see him on line 1 during the Olymics, nor would I be suprised to see him further down the depth chart.

I personally feel he is going to be a integral part of the Canadian attack, but that could be the Canuck fan in me talking.

 

[Zaddik]

46, actually.

There you go. Nash's 41 < Bertuzzi's 46

I don't think so

Then by your logic, Bertuzzi should be on the team if you think past exploits matter now.

You mean the skill set he scored 17 goals with?

Again, using your logic, the skillset he used to score 46 which this season he has finally regained.

A couple days short of 21. 3rd year Electrical Engineer if you wanted to know too.

Right, and I'm in law school.

And Bertuzzi, a 17 goal scorer, should be a go-to guy? Is he rocking the world with his consistancy?

With a loaded team with the likes of Gagne, Nash, Thornton, Lecavlier and Richards, Bertuzzi wouldn't be on the ice for me when my team needs a goal.

Your logic is defunct as what mattered in the past does not hold relevance to the present necessarily. Bertuzzi, despite his follies last season, has been on fire as of late and foreseeably this will continue. You get the guys with the hot hands WITH the maturity and ability to win you those games.

My argument is unsound? Huh? I said Iginla should be the 13th forward on that roster, and right now shouldn't even be on the team.

Nice reading skills though

i only singled out iginla because due to the fact that you're a flames fan, i figured i would make it easier on you by giving you an actual name you could identify with. but my last point regarding this was put in a broader perspective. there are other players out there who have lower point totals than the one you listed who, by your logic should not be there.

 

[Phanuthier*]

I thought it would also be nice to see some of the players resume's, and why they would be deserving of ice time:

Joe Sakic - 2 time Stanley Cup winner, MVP (I believe), has put up the points, a Olympic gold medel and World Cup champion
Jarome Iginla - 2 time Maurice Richard winner (in 3 years), Art Ross Trophy winner (only player to have both the AR and MR trophy), captain a WJC Team Canada, captain the Flames to the Stanley Cup finals and Western Conference championship title, voted MVP by his peers , an Olympic gold medel and a World Cup champion
Simon Gagne- a world cup champion and olympic gold medel. leading the league in goals (I believe)
Vincent Lecavlier - Stanley Cup champion, World Cup champion and MVP
Brad Richards - Stanley Cup champion, Conn Smyth winner, World Cup champion
Martin St Louis - Stanley Cup champion, World Cup champion, Art Ross trophy winner, Hart trophy winner

Todd Bertuzzi? 1 good season some 4 years ago, and the only thing on his record is a criminal record.

 

[Phanuthier*]

There you go. Nash's 41 < Bertuzzi's 46

Nash lead the league in goals. Bertuzzi didn't. Since you like using logic in a bizzare way, Selanne was 2 times the player Bertuzzi was when he got his 76 goals as a rookie.

You get the guys with the hot hands WITH the maturity and ability to win you those games.
.

Well if its maturity, I sure as hell don't want Bertuzzi there! The guy's a hot head who has gone over the top more then once, and his stupid comments to the Minnisota Wild cost his team a 3-1 series lead. If you mean experiance, almost everybody on the team has both experiance winning and at the international level, while Bertuzzi has none.

i only singled out iginla because due to the fact that you're a flames fan, i figured i would make it easier on you by giving you an actual name you could identify with. but my last point regarding this was put in a broader perspective. there are other players out there who have lower point totals than the one you listed who, by your logic should not be there.

Well, you sure showed me then!

 

[hockeyfan125]

your logic is skewed for a 2 week tournament such as the Olympics.

You take the players playing the best currently, and play them the most.

You don't play guys more because they won a cup two years before... etc.

 

[Phanuthier*]

your logic is skewed for a 2 week tournament such as the Olympics.

You take the players playing the best currently, and play them the most.

You don't play guys more because they won a cup two years before... etc.

I don't know about you, but when the game's on the line, I want winners. Bertuzzi, to me, is a liability that you keep on a short leash. When I look at this team, and I look at who the leaders are going to be, I look at guys who have actually done something in their careers. If Bertuzzi plays his way onto the 1st line, great, Bertuzzi gets ice time. But right now, he would have to work for it in my books.

If a couple games meant that much, Kristan Huselius should be on Sweden's 1st line right now.

 

[Zaddik]

I thought it would also be nice to see some of the players resume's, and why they would be deserving of ice time:

Joe Sakic - 2 time Stanley Cup winner, MVP (I believe), has put up the points, a Olympic gold medel and World Cup champion
Jarome Iginla - 2 time Maurice Richard winner (in 3 years), Art Ross Trophy winner (only player to have both the AR and MR trophy), captain a WJC Team Canada, captain the Flames to the Stanley Cup finals and Western Conference championship title, voted MVP by his peers , an Olympic gold medel and a World Cup champion
Simon Gagne- a world cup champion and olympic gold medel. leading the league in goals (I believe)
Vincent Lecavlier - Stanley Cup champion, World Cup champion and MVP
Brad Richards - Stanley Cup champion, Conn Smyth winner, World Cup champion
Martin St Louis - Stanley Cup champion, World Cup champion, Art Ross trophy winner, Hart trophy winner

Todd Bertuzzi? 1 good season some 4 years ago, and the only thing on his record is a criminal record.

Again you're marginalizing todd bertuzzi's abilities by showing me the awards that past players have won. Todd bertuzzi doesn't need awards to show that he's a great player. his skill on the ice is proof enough of how good he is.

Nash lead the league in goals. Bertuzzi didn't. Since you like using logic in a bizzare way, Selanne was 2 times the player Bertuzzi was when he got his 76 goals as a rookie.

I'm only running with the logic you have shown me that you possess and utilize in this discourse. If it seems bizzare, then don't act so surprised, as it is the logic you are using to refute me.

Well if its maturity, I sure as hell don't want Bertuzzi there! The guy's a hot head who has gone over the top more then once, and his stupid comments to the Minnisota Wild cost his team a 3-1 series lead. If you mean experiance, almost everybody on the team has both experiance winning and at the international level, while Bertuzzi has none.

don't put things out of context. staal and spezza lack the maturity of being a seasoned pro. exactly how many full seasons have they played? this is why crosby isn't on the team.

and this is the same kind of crap people have been spewing about theo fleury 2002, but there was no trademark fleury outburst during the olympics when he got slashed in the face.

Well, you sure showed me then!

i'm glad you realize the errors of your ways.

 

[hockeyfan125]

But right now, he would have to work for it in my books.

and he is. I am not going to support him against you, because its quite obvious you don't like him. I just think that Bertuzzi is good enough and smart enough to play in pressure situations for Canada. I think he brings an element to the game that no one else on the team brings, and I think he could really offset his linemates very well. Canada is going to have a sick team no matter who is on the ice, so there is no point arguing about it now.

 

[Phanuthier*]

Again you're marginalizing todd bertuzzi's abilities by showing me the awards that past players have won. Todd bertuzzi doesn't need awards to show that he's a great player. his skill on the ice is proof enough of how good he is.
.

ok, humour me. What exactly has Todd Bertuzzi doen that shows "he's a great player" that makes him deserving over those players who have actually won something and have experiance at the international level?

Your a lawyer, so you should know a thing or two about selling someone (well ok, not directly corralated) ... if you were on the Olympic Comittee, how would you sell Todd Bertuzzi that makes him better then Simon Gagne, Joe Sakic, Vincent Lecavlier, Brad Richards or Dany Heatley? I'd include Iginla, but he's on scratch list.

I'm only running with the logic you have shown me that you possess and utilize in this discourse. If it seems bizzare, then don't act so surprised, as it is the logic you are using to refute me.

I have no idea what the heck your talking about

don't put things out of context. staal and spezza lack the maturity of being a seasoned pro. exactly how many full seasons have they played? this is why crosby isn't on the team.

and this is the same kind of crap people have been spewing about theo fleury 2002, but there was no trademark fleury outburst during the olympics when he got slashed in the face.

Ok, what has Bertuzzi ever done that has showed his "maturity" ? His ability to handle big games? Nope. His ability to handle tough situations? Nope, that almost landed him in prison. His consistantcy? He's sure not showing that either, and hasn't for years. Exactly what has Bertuzzi done that makes him "mature"?

As for Staal and Spezza... I'd pick them, because they are better players right now and don't bring the problems that Bertuzzi brings.

Theo Fleury... funny you mention him. He didn't hurt the team, but he certainly didn't help them either. And funny you'd mention Bertuzzi in the same breath as Theo Fleury, the only player to remain on permanent suspension by the NHL substance abuse program, was a $7 million man drinking his sorrows away in bum bars in New York, black listed himself out of the NHL into a tier 14 native league where he even cost his team the championship before hi-tailing his pathetic butt to the drunk capital of the world to finish his career as one of the most pathetic players ever to play the game.

 

[Phanuthier*]

I just think that Bertuzzi is good enough and smart enough to play in pressure situations for Canada.

I think its great and all that you think that, but where's the proof? Any kind of proof?

My point isn't that I like Bertuzzi (I believe I even told you, I don't even think Bertuzzi should have been suspended, and I think Moore had it coming to him) my point is that there is too many good players on Team Canada for Bertuzzi to play a significant role. He may have picked up his game over the past couple weeks, but before then, he was invisible, and being good for a few games won't give you a easy buy onto the first line on Team Canada when you have as many great and established players and who have won ahead of Todd Bertuzzi. Todd Bertuzzi is gonna have to earn his ice time IMO, and if he does, he'll get it. If he doesn't, he'll be riding the pine. Gretz and co said it loud and clear, they value experiance, and there is a ton of it on Team Canada - and Todd Bertuzzi is lacking it and will have to earn every inch he gets.