Lidstrom Vs. Potvin

[bleeney]

I've gotta go with Potvin here (even though I hated the Isles with a passion).

In terms of team success, he was the captain of a dynasty that won four straight Cups, only to have their run for five stopped by that offensive powerhouse of Gretzky and the Oilers. They were also preceded by the late 70s Habs, who, I hate to admit, are still the best team I've ever seen (I hated them too).

Offensively, he was tremendous: 31 goals, 101 points. He was a great passer and had an absolutely lethal shot, particularly his wrister. He'd be at least as good offensively as any Dman playing today.

And he was tough. Lord, he was tough, capable of really wrecking somebody (just ask Bengt Gustavsson). He was a mean guy who had a nasty, menacing physical element to his game. When Potvin hit, you felt it. A lot of players gave the puck up quickly when he was around. And he could really throw 'em too, which was much more important when he broke in.

He also played during the golden age of defensemen: Orr, Robinson, Bourque, Coffey, Langway, Park, Savard, Salming... His competition for Norris and All-Star honours was much tougher than Lidstrom's.

Lidstrom is a great player, but would he have six Norris Trophies against that competition? In an era where physical play and overall toughness was much more essential?

 

[seventieslord]

Nevermind that he was also the top goal scorer annually on a dynastic team during that time.

You're confusing the regular season and the playoffs. Bossy's outstanding playoff record is why he is a top-30 player of all-time and not just a SuperSelanne. and TDMM was only talking about the regular season. And as of the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs, his 4th-6th in goals doesn't mean anything more because he was on a cup winner, because he hadn't won the cup yet! So why would it mean something more after he contributes to, and wins a cup, in the playoffs?

There is a player's playoff record and there's their regular season record. You appear to want to double-credit Bossy for his playoff record.

No, it's more telling that Denis Savard outscored Bossy by three points in 1982-83. And that Dale Hawerchuk did same in 1985-85. Alrightttty.

Hey, looky here! John Ogrodnick had just three less goals than Bossy in 1984-85. See? Bossy is overrated! Denis Maruk was just four goals behind Bossy in 1981-82 (and seven points ahead of Bryan Trottier!) A-ha!

As for the rest, so what if Maruk and Ogrodnick had one regular season where they were almost as good as Bossy? It was one regular season. They didn't maintain that level. he did. Ditto Savard and Hawerchuk, obviously to a lesser extent.

 

[Epsilon]

I think TDMM's point was to refute the snarkily-made claim that the main thing separating Lafleur's and Bossy's collection of trophies and personal accolades was the presence of Gretzky and Lemieux.

"-insert player from Gretzky/Lemieux era- would have won more individual awards and scoring titles if he didn't have to compete for them with Gretzky and Lemieux" is an overused tactic (especially when use for one Steve Yzerman), that mostly relies on the other parties not bothering to look up the scoring tables and awards votes records to notice that there were other players ahead of the one in question besides Wayne and Mario.

 

[revolverjgw]

Lidstrom is a great player, but would he have six Norris Trophies against that competition? In an era where physical play and overall toughness was much more essential?

Maybe not six, but I think he'd have at least as many as Potvin, and be in the mix for as long he wanted to play.

As for the style issue, I'd say that's a non-starter... there's no amount of physical play that can throw him off his game and no player that could intimidate, frustrate or outmuscle him. It would be a waste of effort trying and just get you in the box or making stupid mistakes. This guy made Eric Lindros his beyotch at a time when Lindros was probably the most physically intimidating player ever, he just seems to transcend that kind of thing.

 

[Trottier]

There is a player's playoff record and there's their regular season record. You appear to want to double-credit Bossy for his playoff record.

What does "double credit" mean?

I don't have to double credit Mike Bossy to anyone who watched the player perform throughout his career. And on the HOH board, my comments are directed to such posters...which may explain why the rationale behind them are typically appreciated moreso by those posters (even if they disagree) than the latter-day fan. Which is understandable and fine.

As for the rest, so what if Maruk and Ogrodnick had one regular season where they were almost as good as Bossy? It was one regular season. They didn't maintain that level. he did. Ditto Savard and Hawerchuk, obviously to a lesser extent.

That was my point!

The fact that Bossy finished "just" 4th or 5th in scoring all those years is relatively meaningless. It has to be put in a greater context, beyond numerical ranking.

You are clearly eager to disagree with me. I apologize, but I see no basis for debate.

 

[seventieslord]

What does "double credit" mean?

It means you sound like you want Bossy's regular seasons circa 1980-1983 to be held in even higher esteem because they were followed by cup wins... I don't follow that logic.

That was my point!

The fact that Bossy finished "just" 4th or 5th in scoring all those years is relatively meaningless. It has to be put in a greater context, beyond numerical ranking.

You are clearly eager to disagree with me. I apologize, but I see no basis for debate.

I am not eager to disagree with you, disagreeing with you is as unpleasant as it gets on these boards. (I try to do it as little as possible) I did, however, misunderstand you. If that was your point, then great. Bossy was awesome. Those guys' claim to fame is that they almost approached his level for just one year. (sounded more like you were straw-manning TDMM as though he implied Bossy was only as good as guys like that)

 

[biggerleaffan*]

I never seen potvin so i say lidstrom is best.

 

[Regal]

It means you sound like you want Bossy's regular seasons circa 1980-1983 to be held in even higher esteem because they were followed by cup wins... I don't follow that logic.

I think he was just saying that Bossy was leading one of the best teams of all time in goals every season, so those goals would matter more over the season, and the feat would be more impressive, than someone doing it on a basement dweller.

 

[redbull]

You're confusing the regular season and the playoffs. Bossy's outstanding playoff record is why he is a top-30 player of all-time and not just a SuperSelanne. and TDMM was only talking about the regular season. And as of the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs, his 4th-6th in goals doesn't mean anything more because he was on a cup winner, because he hadn't won the cup yet! So why would it mean something more after he contributes to, and wins a cup, in the playoffs?

There is a player's playoff record and there's their regular season record. You appear to want to double-credit Bossy for his playoff record.
.

Sometimes it seems this board is more about the "history of regular season art ross standings" where players are weighted heavily on regular season goals and assists. I think this is where a lot of the opposing stances stem from.

I think it's fine to disagree, Lidstrom/Potvin or Bossy/Lafleur or Gretzky/Orr - whatever.
But let's be clear on the reasons why there's disagreement.

I think evaluating Bossy's career based on regular season scoring stats alone tells only part of the story.
He probably scored more goals in his career than anyone else scored over that same nine year span (haven't looked it up - I would think Gretzky is probably ahead of him though) BUT the fact he probably leads the NHL in playoff goals over that same span (and cups) makes a significant difference in how you evaluate the player.

Otherwise we run the risk of arguing that Alexei Yashin is better than Ryan Smyth (yes, hyperbole).

I just find it a bit absurd that regular season scoring means so much on these boards. We all watch the playoffs every year. The hockey world rewards those ultimate TEAM achievements and the KEY PLAYERS who led the way - no small feat yet somehow this is lost among the goals/assists in the regular season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Sometimes it seems this board is more about the "history of regular season art ross standings" where players are weighted heavily on regular season goals and assists. I think this is where a lot of the opposing stances stem from.

I think it's fine to disagree, Lidstrom/Potvin or Bossy/Lafleur or Gretzky/Orr - whatever.
But let's be clear on the reasons why there's disagreement.

I think evaluating Bossy's career based on regular season scoring stats alone tells only part of the story.
He probably scored more goals in his career than anyone else scored over that same nine year span (haven't looked it up - I would think Gretzky is probably ahead of him though) BUT the fact he probably leads the NHL in playoff goals over that same span (and cups) makes a significant difference in how you evaluate the player.

Otherwise we run the risk of arguing that Alexei Yashin is better than Ryan Smyth (yes, hyperbole).

I just find it a bit absurd that regular season scoring means so much on these boards. We all watch the playoffs every year. The hockey world rewards those ultimate TEAM achievements and the KEY PLAYERS who led the way - no small feat yet somehow this is lost among the goals/assists in the regular season.

I don't find this to be the case at all in the History site. Almost no one argues strictly on the basis of regular season point totals. Or strictly on any one criteria. But to downplay offensive numbers in the regular season is pretty silly also.

Marcel Dionne would be on no one's top 100 if those meaningless regular season points carried little weight. And if they garnered the absurd level of credit you say is given to them, surely Dionne would be a top 20 player on the list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Nevermind that he was also the top goal scorer annually on a dynastic team during that time. A perennial 50+ goal scorer. A lethal threat every shift he was on the ice.

But alas, personal stats and trophies. Without....

Context.

As in: what impact did the personal performance have?

Of course, for some, that's inconsequential. Because it's a team sport! Credit Trottier with Cups? He had Potvin! Credit Bossy? He had Trottier. Slippery meet slope.

No, it's more telling that Denis Savard outscored Bossy by three points in 1982-83. And that Dale Hawerchuk did same in 1985-85. Alrightttty.

Hey, looky here! John Ogrodnick had just three less goals than Bossy in 1984-85. See? Bossy is overrated! Denis Maruk was just four goals behind Bossy in 1981-82 (and seven points ahead of Bryan Trottier!) A-ha!

I'm just sitting back enjoying how history is being re-written around here, greats being smashed left and right.

Next up: Lincoln and Einstein were products of their eras. Neither would cut it today.

What exactly are you going off about? Are you having a bad week? You're going around from thread to thread, lecturing "young ens" for things we didn't even say!

I think TDMM's point was to refute the snarkily-made claim that the main thing separating Lafleur's and Bossy's collection of trophies and personal accolades was the presence of Gretzky and Lemieux.

"-insert player from Gretzky/Lemieux era- would have won more individual awards and scoring titles if he didn't have to compete for them with Gretzky and Lemieux" is an overused tactic (especially when use for one Steve Yzerman), that mostly relies on the other parties not bothering to look up the scoring tables and awards votes records to notice that there were other players ahead of the one in question besides Wayne and Mario.

Exactly. (And it's not like Lafleur himself wasn't a big part of a dynasty).

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think TDMM's point was to refute the snarkily-made claim that the main thing separating Lafleur's and Bossy's collection of trophies and personal accolades was the presence of Gretzky and Lemieux.

"-insert player from Gretzky/Lemieux era- would have won more individual awards and scoring titles if he didn't have to compete for them with Gretzky and Lemieux" is an overused tactic (especially when use for one Steve Yzerman), that mostly relies on the other parties not bothering to look up the scoring tables and awards votes records to notice that there were other players ahead of the one in question besides Wayne and Mario.

The point isn't just that a player in his prime during Bossy's years was competing with Gretzky/Lemieux.

Although the presence of Gretzky alone means that you don't get all those nice 1st place award finishes everyone seems to value so much without the context of who they were against -- except against Lidstrom for some reason.

The point is that the amount of top level offensive competition faced by a player in the early to mid-80s is miles ahead of the level of competition faced by Lafleur.

He basically had to beat one guy (Dionne) who had his hands tied behind his back by lousy teams. The other guys who were competing with him for point totals were actually 2 way players (Clarke and Trottier), hurt or past their primes. The fact that his main competition offensively for a few years were guys who were far and away more complete players tells me all I need to know.

A guy like Fedorov wasn't able to do that until Lemieux was hurt and Gretzky and Yzerman were well past their offensive heights.

Yes various guys beat Bossy by a couple of points or were close to him in goals in various years during that Bossy's prime.. that is because there were more guys with enough ability to even have a big year like that if everything went right.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I "love" when people try and dismiss Bossy, it's funny.
Only two players in history have scored 50 goals or more in a season 9 times, Gretzky and Bossy and only Bossy's were consecutive.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Maybe not six, but I think he'd have at least as many as Potvin, and be in the mix for as long he wanted to play.

As for the style issue, I'd say that's a non-starter... there's no amount of physical play that can throw him off his game and no player that could intimidate, frustrate or outmuscle him. It would be a waste of effort trying and just get you in the box or making stupid mistakes. This guy made Eric Lindros his beyotch at a time when Lindros was probably the most physically intimidating player ever, he just seems to transcend that kind of thing.

Lidstrom would also not lose an entire season due to a lockout, in the middle of his prime, had he played a decade or two before. No matter what era, Lidstrom would be in the running for a Norris at least 12 times in his career -- maybe he only wins 4, but maybe it is 8 -- depending on the specific years.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

I "love" when people try and dismiss Bossy, it's funny.
Only two players in history have scored 50 goals or more in a season 9 times, Gretzky and Bossy and only Bossy's were consecutive.

I love Bossy but looking at things that way is rather unfair considering the late 70's/80's is the only time period possible in which he could have had 9 straight 50 goal seasons.

For instance...

Bossy's best 7 year stretch adjusted:

GP G

73 45
80 58
75 43
79 52
80 47
79 48
67 40

Kovalchuk's best 7 year stretch adjusted:

GP G

81 43
81 48
78 52
82 44
79 58
79 46
76 45

Very comparable. I used 7 because Kovalchuk doesn't have a 9 year stretch like that, yet. This is only one example mind you. I've thought for a while that Kovalchuk is the closest thing to a modern day Bossy in terms of consistent elite goal scoring. This illustrates that it's at the very least fairly close, even if still an edge to Bossy.

 

[redbull]

I love Bossy but looking at things that way is rather unfair considering the late 70's/80's is the only time period possible in which he could have had 9 straight 50 goal seasons.

For instance...

Bossy's best 7 year stretch adjusted:

GP G

73 45
80 58
75 43
79 52
80 47
79 48
67 40

Kovalchuk's best 7 year stretch adjusted:

GP G

81 43
81 48
78 52
82 44
79 58
79 46
76 45

Very comparable. I used 7 because Kovalchuk doesn't have a 9 year stretch like that, yet. This is only one example mind you. I've thought for a while that Kovalchuk is the closest thing to a modern day Bossy in terms of consistent elite goal scoring. This illustrates that it's at the very least fairly close, even if still an edge to Bossy.

hey! kovy's goals inlclude BOTH regular season AND playoffs...not fair !

 

[Rhiessan71]

I love Bossy but looking at things that way is rather unfair considering the late 70's/80's is the only time period possible in which he could have had 9 straight 50 goal seasons.

For instance...

Bossy's best 7 year stretch adjusted:

GP G

73 45
80 58
75 43
79 52
80 47
79 48
67 40

Kovalchuk's best 7 year stretch adjusted:

GP G

81 43
81 48
78 52
82 44
79 58
79 46
76 45

Very comparable. I used 7 because Kovalchuk doesn't have a 9 year stretch like that, yet. This is only one example mind you. I've thought for a while that Kovalchuk is the closest thing to a modern day Bossy in terms of consistent elite goal scoring. This illustrates that it's at the very least fairly close, even if still an edge to Bossy.

Ahhh...adjusted stats used at full value...how I love that
Give Bossy one of the new sticks and we'd prolly be looking at 10 consecutive 50 goal seasons and 9 60 goal seasons.

Adjusted stats are to be used as a rough guide, they are not the gospel, they got picked apart bad in a Forsberg thread not too long ago when they returned Peter as a 150-160 point player in the 80's scoring 50-60 goals and 100+ assists....it was a joke.

 

[seventieslord]

Give Bossy one of the new sticks and we'd prolly be looking at 10 consecutive 50 goal seasons and 9 60 goal seasons..

Except you'd have to give a new stick to everyone he competed against, and his dominance of them statistically would be at the same level that it's at now.

Just like if you took away Kovy's new stick and did the same to every other modern player, he'd still be a great goalscorer, just maybe with lower totals.

 

[Reds4Life]

And if you give Bossy a new stick, you must also give new equipment to goalies..he shot at significantly worse goalies (at least equipment and skill wise) than Kovalchuk.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Look, the point is, Bossy wasn't the only one shooting on these "inferior" goaltenders yet him and Gretzky were the only ones able to put up 9 50+ goal seasons and by 50 that's being conservative as most were closer to 60 or 70.
Even if you try and "adjust" these numbers that's still a hell of a lot of goals in today's NHL.
People bring up Kovalchuk and OV as being close but both of them still have another 4-5 seasons of the same production to even be on par with what Bossy did.
So in 2015 we can revisit this but until then neither of them deserve to ranked with Bossy, end of story.

I'm just sick of all these people taking away from what players like Bossy did in the 80's. Some of you make it sound like scoring 70 goals is like scoring 30 today and it's ridiculous.

People talk about how good Pronger is well I got news for ya's, Pronger aint faster, aint meaner, doesn't hit as hard and isn't as offensively gifted as Potvin was, that's the gods honest truth folks.

 

[unknown33]

What the **** is going on here?

Just stop comparing Mike Bossy to Ilya Kovalchuk.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

I'll take Potvin, but its very close .. primarily due to the increased longevity that Lidstrom has over Denis.

I have no idea why, but those that entered around the same time as Potivn, has shorter careers than most diminant players. Potvin, Clarke, LaFleur, Bossy, etc.

For me, Denis Potvin has the highest peak of any post-Orr defenseman. I have him 2nd in the post-Orr era, while I have Lidstrom 4th, post-Orr.

 

[Trottier]

And he was tough. Lord, he was tough, capable of really wrecking somebody (just ask Bengt Gustavsson).

Great sidebar to that Gustafsson hit/injury, which occured during the 1984-85:

It was a clean hit (no penalty), yet one which obviously got Caps fans (it happened at the Cap Center) and players alike in an uproar, as it ended BG's season on the spot. Unsurprisingly, Lou Franceschetti, Caps resident tough guy at the time, made Potvin drop the gloves and answer for it later in the game.

The venom spilled over after the game in the Caps lockeroom. Bryan Murray and virtually the entire Caps team to a man either had no comment on the it, or criticized Potvin.

All except one.

This Cap publicly stated that while the outcome was unfortunate, the hit was clean and he saw nothing wrong with it.

A pretty ballsy comment, especially coming from just a 20 year old, third-year dman....

....by the name of Scott Stevens.

True story.

 

[Trottier]

Ahhh...adjusted stats used at full value...how I love that .

To borrow from Animal House, War is over. The one board on HF that was (thankfully) for years dominated by astute long-time hockey fans is now being invaded by the "Children of the Stat".

Best to just sit back, engage judiciously and otherwise enjoy the folly. Who would have known that it would take more than 20 years later to be "informed" that those we had the privilege of watching were not that special after all.

 

[bleeney]

Look, the point is, Bossy wasn't the only one shooting on these "inferior" goaltenders yet him and Gretzky were the only ones able to put up 9 50+ goal seasons and by 50 that's being conservative as most were closer to 60 or 70.
Even if you try and "adjust" these numbers that's still a hell of a lot of goals in today's NHL.
People bring up Kovalchuk and OV as being close but both of them still have another 4-5 seasons of the same production to even be on par with what Bossy did.
So in 2015 we can revisit this but until then neither of them deserve to ranked with Bossy, end of story.

I'm just sick of all these people taking away from what players like Bossy did in the 80's. Some of you make it sound like scoring 70 goals is like scoring 30 today and it's ridiculous.

People talk about how good Pronger is well I got news for ya's, Pronger aint faster, aint meaner, doesn't hit as hard and isn't as offensively gifted as Potvin was, that's the gods honest truth folks.

So true.

Potvin was a great two-way Dman. Not only was he the anchor of that tough Islander blueline; he was also a strong skater and playmaker, a prolific scorer, and a superb powerplay QB. When he retired he was the career leader among Dmen in goals and points. On top of all that skill, he was just plain mean. There was a menacing physical edge to his game. This guy hit like a ton of bricks, he could fight, and was just a horrible man to go against in the corners.

Not to mention the fact that he captained his team to four Cups in a row.