Player Discussion Leo Carlsson

[Arthuros]

You know Leo has struck a chord when Hawks fans start posting defensively in his thread.

Me reading the posts in that thread:

 

[Mr Rogers]

Me reading the posts in that thread:

Next year is gonna be really compelling

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

That "one thing" that would credit the tournament is the fact that he has more points in the ~20 games after the tournament than in the ~50 games before it.

Feels like you're being deliberately obtuse at this point so I'll just leave it at that.

So you're admitting you can't point to anything that happened there to account for the change. None of the work he put in to his career prior to the tournament counts, only that he went to a tournament for a few days and came back playing better. Kind of like the guys who went to Mexico to party and came back playing better.

There's nothing obtuse with expecting you actually show something of substance when trying to browbeat someone into buying you opinion. So, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[DaGeneral]

So you're admitting you can't point to anything that happened there to account for the change. None of the work he put in to his career prior to the tournament counts, only that he went to a tournament for a few days and came back playing better. Kind of like the guys who went to Mexico to party and came back playing better.

There's nothing obtuse with expecting you actually show something of substance when trying to browbeat someone into buying you opinion. So, I'll just leave it at that.

Your response is just not genuine - we don’t have the access to everything Leo experienced at the 4 nations tournament but it’s not crazy to think something clicked. Of course they aren’t going to completely change his shot or redefine his skating technique.. in terms of growth, it’s all between the ears and that’s really hard to measure

 

[HanSolo]

So you're admitting you can't point to anything that happened there to account for the change. None of the work he put in to his career prior to the tournament counts, only that he went to a tournament for a few days and came back playing better. Kind of like the guys who went to Mexico to party and came back playing better.

There's nothing obtuse with expecting you actually show something of substance when trying to browbeat someone into buying you opinion. So, I'll just leave it at that.

Come on dude. You know no one is saying that and I know you're smarter than that.

No one is sitting here saying Leo was a bust in the making until he went to the Four Nations and magically acquired the talent and training to be worthy of top 3 billing in a stacked class. That's a super black and white way to frame this just to defend your point.

The foundations were obviously there and always have been. The problem appears to have been a blend of underdeveloped muscle mass and strength, mounting frustration, probably suboptimal coaching/training. and maybe some apprehension in his game after a number of injuries.

You wanna say that time off helped clear his head? Fine. I don't know that I'd agree that just because he was the 13th forward, somehow Team Sweden took it easy on him and gave him a vacation but that's neither here nor there. Others have noticed that there's been a noticeable shift in how he's playing the game aside from shooting more where, pre 4N he looked to be frustrated and unfocused, post 4N he looks focused and confident and maybe there's an intangible correlation that caused something to shift for him mentally. No one can know for sure and no one will know for sure because no one can read the kid's mind and no one was there with him in that Swedish locker room.

I find it a little weird that you're taking such a strong stance on this but even that aside, the bolded isn't just being intentionally obtuse, it's a straight up bad faith debate tactic.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Your response is just not genuine - we don’t have the access to everything Leo experienced at the 4 nations tournament but it’s not crazy to think something clicked. Of course they aren’t going to completely change his shot or redefine his skating technique.. in terms of growth, it’s all between the ears and that’s really hard to measure

What is not genuine? I said nothing negative about his experience there. I merely stated that just because his scoring improved since then you can't just magically say it's something from the tournament that caused his improvement. Yet that seems to be the bandwagon some have jumped on.

The kid has been busting his ass for years to get where he is but somehow it's the magic tournament that improved his game overnight? Please. Without us having access to anything Leo has experienced/learned in his first 20 years it's the tournament that made all the difference in his improvement? Now that's not genuine.

The bolded is exactly my point. Any success he has is, IMO, attributable to a combination of all he has learned over time and implemented in his game. You can't point to that tournament and make it out to be something above and beyond all he has learned right up until the tournament.

As I said before a lot of other guys have played better and put up impressive point totals since the tournament and all they did was go to Mexico and party. How do you explain that? That couldn't have happened to Leo?

 

[Rasp]

Not really sure what this proves. They were on the ice together at practice. Was this the big secret sauce that ignited Leo's game? Do tell.

I'm waiting for somebody to point to the big epiphany Leo had at the tournament that allows you to say it was the tournament that caused his improved play. Nobody can.

I merely pointed out that this tournament was just another few days in the life of a young world class athlete evolving in the top professional league of his sport. Nothing more, nothing less.

There was something recently about how Carlsson was passing the puck into the net instead of shooting it. Now since the 4 nations he has been shooting the puck when trying to score which is evident in how many goals he has scored since then.

 

[JAHV]

What is not genuine? I said nothing negative about his experience there. I merely stated that just because his scoring improved since then you can't just magically say it's something from the tournament that caused his improvement. Yet that seems to be the bandwagon some have jumped on.

The kid has been busting his ass for years to get where he is but somehow it's the magic tournament that improved his game overnight? Please. Without us having access to anything Leo has experienced/learned in his first 20 years it's the tournament that made all the difference in his improvement? Now that's not genuine.

The bolded is exactly my point. Any success he has is, IMO, attributable to a combination of all he has learned over time and implemented in his game. You can't point to that tournament and make it out to be something above and beyond all he has learned right up until the tournament.

As I said before a lot of other guys have played better and put up impressive point totals since the tournament and all they did was go to Mexico and party. How do you explain that? That couldn't have happened to Leo?

It's the bolded (and particularly the word "magic") that shows you're not arguing in good faith. As if a young player, struggling with confidence, not producing or developing as he'd hoped, could learn nothing and experience nothing from spending a week and a half with the best hockey players and coaches his country has to offer. It has to be "magic" that happened "overnight."

We saw a kid who really looked down on himself before going to that tournament. Now, even more than the production, we see a kid who looks confident and focused and certain. It seems likely to me that getting selected for the team along with some elite players, spending time watching them closely and learning from them, and getting some practice sessions with Swedish legends did some good for him. That doesn't diminish his natural ability or his perseverance. No one here is denigrating the years of hard work Leo has put in.

I'm glad he went. It certainly seems like it did him good.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

It's the bolded (and particularly the word "magic") that shows you're not arguing in good faith. As if a young player, struggling with confidence, not producing or developing as he'd hoped, could learn nothing and experience nothing from spending a week and a half with the best hockey players and coaches his country has to offer. It has to be "magic" that happened "overnight."

We saw a kid who really looked down on himself before going to that tournament. Now, even more than the production, we see a kid who looks confident and focused and certain. It seems likely to me that getting selected for the team along with some elite players, spending time watching them closely and learning from them, and getting some practice sessions with Swedish legends did some good for him. That doesn't diminish his natural ability or his perseverance. No one here is denigrating the years of hard work Leo has put in.

I'm glad he went. It certainly seems like it did him good.

Yeah, overnight in the context of how many years he’s been playing. Just like magic.

So I’m not arguing in good faith because nobody can tell me why it’s the tournament that gets credit for his improvement and you don’t like me pointing that out?

It’s amazing how many people will argue against me having an opinion they don’t agree with yet can’t defend their own position.

I’m done with this conversation.

 

[JAHV]

Yeah, overnight in the context of how many years he’s been playing. Just like magic.

So I’m not arguing in good faith because nobody can tell me why it’s the tournament that gets credit for his improvement and you don’t like me pointing that out?

It’s amazing how many people will argue against me having an opinion they don’t agree with yet can’t defend their own position.

I’m done with this conversation.

We've all defended the position, but you choose to ignore it. The dude was around All Stars, high level coaches, and Swedish Hall of Famers for 10 days, came back looking like a new man, and you're the one claiming magic. If you're asking us to show you the secret recording we have of the Swedish workouts during 4 Nations and point out exactly the moment where Leo turned into Mats Sundin, I'm sorry, I accidentally taped over it with the latest Simpsons episode, otherwise I'd be happy to.

If you think 10 days playing high level hockey under high level tutelage with other high level players can't make a difference in your mindset and and your confidence and even your skill level to a small degree, then I don't know what to tell you. That happens all the time. That's the whole basis of sports camps.

 

[Leonardo87]

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Good young players are always open to coaching advice. I wouldn't expect Leo to be any different. But given it was a short tournament whose only goal was to win every game, and given how he was the 13th forward on the team, it's pretty hard to imagine them taking extra time to give him special one on one coaching as a guy who was not being counted on to contribute at all in the tournament.

As I said before, I'm sure he enjoyed the experience and the break from the seasonal grind. Just like many of his teammates did.

I think you're painting a picture that may not be true, but it does fit what you want it to fit.

What's odd is I shared LaCombe's story of his the pre and post WJC productions. LaCombe was the 7th d-man, if he got put into games for the WJC-20. His defense with Minny (NCAA) for a year and a quarter was given great reviews from his coaches, since LaCombe's priority was learning defense first. Yet his offense didn't have any pop at the NCAA level like it did in high school. Going to the WJC-20 opened his mind a bit and his offensive game took off. No slight on LaCombe's NCAA coaches, because his defense has translated well to the NHL level and his offense was always there from his high school days.

One way to see going to a short tourney in-between season is like your company sending to you a speaker's conference where you are among the best in your field or better. Then you come back with just a little more knowledge of how to do your job a bit better, but with greater results. Welp, that's something that happened to Carlsson - someone got to his head to stop being passive literally and figuratively with the puck, but to be more aggressive and become a shoot first center.

I'm grateful to have this discussion of Carlsson's offensive boost rather than complain how his offense is being suppressed under Cronin for a two full seasons.