Player Discussion Leo Carlsson

There is a certain level of skill and dynamism to Leo's game that i don't think the Ducks have had since Kariya. I think it has something to do with his ability to create these fantastic goals when it appeared he had nothing going for him. Last couple games it's been a lot more conspicuous.


I love Getzy but I do think Leo is more skilled. Getz was just built like a transformer tho and he held up amazingly for a long time, Leo still has a some ways to go fitness-wise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SmokeyDuck and Kalv
I'm saying I don't know. Could it have been better for his development? Possibly. Or Leo could be the type that more time in Sweden means that much more time adapting to the NA game on top of his SHL loan years. My point is why spend more than a few minutes thinking about it? We're at a point now where we're in too deep to send Leo back to Sweden so it's just spilled milk at this point. Unless you're trying to suggest that Leo can't reach his top upside because he didn't spend more time in Sweden, there's really nothing productive that I can see from wringing our wrists over what could have been. The concern is how will this team develop him going forward. Going back to Orebro is not an option.

As for Luneau, the circumstances were what they were. As you said, his play warranted more development time which he has been getting and where he has been thriving of late.

It's not just about Carlsson. It's about the all of the other prospects and the lack of introspection upon the org.

Our best youth spent four seasons in college and used last year to adapt to the NHL. Many on here didn't believe in LaCombe, but Cronin did identify LaCombe as the most improved player last season about 2/3rd into the season. This year, LaCombe built off of last year's work and took off this season.

The biggest difference in production between pre-4N and post-4N for Carlsson is being around the Swedes. That did far more to Carlsson's confidence than Cronin's coaching in a year and a half or Verbeek's load mgmt. Now imagine a full season of that good development with Orebro, just how much more dynamic and confident Carlsson would be today.

Moving forward, maybe Verbeek should let Carlsson listen to his Swedish summer coaches and trainers b/c Carlsson isn't getting the best development advice from our own org, especially if Cronin's thought on offense is that it'll come eventually.

Luneau is another piece of evidence that Verbeek possesses too much hubris that he can develop a vastly underdeveloped youth at the NHL level. Minty and Zell are still struggling how to play defense in their year 2 of the NHL.

McIlvane took a year and a half to figure out how to coach at the AHL level. Last year we had a rookie NHL HC, a rookie AHL HC, and Verbeek going into his 2nd full season as a GM. You think they're a better group than the team that developed Carlsson?! Apparently not. Thank goodness the 4N did happen and Carlsson was added to it, otherwise we all would be f***ing disappointed about Carlsson's development.
 
It's not just about Carlsson. It's about the all of the other prospects and the lack of introspection upon the org.

Our best youth spent four seasons in college and used last year to adapt to the NHL. Many on here didn't believe in LaCombe, but Cronin did identify LaCombe as the most improved player last season about 2/3rd into the season. This year, LaCombe built off of last year's work and took off this season.

The biggest difference in production between pre-4N and post-4N for Carlsson is being around the Swedes. That did far more to Carlsson's confidence than Cronin's coaching in a year and a half or Verbeek's load mgmt. Now imagine a full season of that good development with Orebro, just how much more dynamic and confident Carlsson would be today.

Moving forward, maybe Verbeek should let Carlsson listen to his Swedish summer coaches and trainers b/c Carlsson isn't getting the best development advice from our own org, especially if Cronin's thought on offense is that it'll come eventually.

Luneau is another piece of evidence that Verbeek possesses too much hubris that he can develop a vastly underdeveloped youth at the NHL level. Minty and Zell are still struggling how to play defense in their year 2 of the NHL.

McIlvane took a year and a half to figure out how to coach at the AHL level. Last year we had a rookie NHL HC, a rookie AHL HC, and Verbeek going into his 2nd full season as a GM. You think they're a better group than the team that developed Carlsson?! Apparently not. Thank goodness the 4N did happen and Carlsson was added to it, otherwise we all would be f***ing disappointed about Carlsson's development.
I mean again. You might be right, you might not. Hindsight can't be 20/20 because again, a big issue Leo still has is his timing when he makes plays. That's a common issue with players who come to the NHL from Europe. Some adapt quickly, some adapt with time, some don't really adapt enough and end up going back to Europe. There's a big difference between the NA game and the Euro game. Not big enough that certain skills and talents don't translate but the sport on European ice is much more wide open. There's more room and time to stickhandle and think before making plays. In Orebro, Leo showed a notable talent for making quick stickhandle plays that would confound defenders, but he had more time and space, and less of a threat to deal with physical pressure to make those plays.

So, the point is yeah Orebro could have handled development of some of his offensive talents better, but whether he came over in D+1 or D+3, there would still be an adjustment period and who knows how much better suited he would have been to adapt to NHL ice with more SHL development?

I don't say this in defense of Verbeek. My ultimate point is, it's not really worth thinking too much about unless you want it to be an argument in favor of firing Verbeek. As it comes to concerns about how Leo is developed going forward, there's nothing productive to be gained in thinking about what might have been. Whether it was the right call or not, the decision was to develop him in house in the NHL, and there is virtually zero chance he goes back to the SHL now. I'm more interested in what the kid is being taught going forward, how long it will take him to add strength and muscle to his fairly ideal build, and how well this team can foster the development of his offensive talents and teach him how to play the role of a 1C in the NHL going forward.

I'm super happy with his performance lately, but I expect a 1C to be the guy you throw out on the ice to tilt the pace and flow of a team's offensive possession, puck movement, and chance generation and that's something we've still only seen flashes of. You seem repelled when I mention that he needs to grow his strength and add muscle, but that's going to be essential to the development of that style of play, if he ever gets there. He's still not strong enough on his feet or on the puck to be comfortable enough to be the guy with the puck on his stick that is the all-around facilitator. The way Cronin seems to want him to play strikes me as more of an expectation to turn him into a Mackinnon than a Barkov. Don't get me wrong, if Leo could end up a Mackinnon, that's still an outstanding outcome, but Mackinnon gets by on the frequency of his offense. You can't argue with his numbers. But he's really more of a lone wolf net driver and less of a guy that dictates the offensive threat of his whole line. We need more of that on this team out of a 1C imo. Like maybe this is controversial, but I mean this objectively, if I'm trying to win a cup, I'd rather have a Jack Eichel or Alex Barkov type who drives the offense of his entire line at the expense of individual stats while playing strong two way defense than a Nathan Mackinnon type. I feel like this team is coaching/developing Leo to play like the latter (with better defense) when Leo's innate skills and abilities favor the former style of play.

That's what I'm concerned about. At this point I really couldn't give a shit whether it would have been better for Leo to stay in Sweden or not because we can't change the past. I mean we as fans have no say in any of this anyway, but there's nothing the team can do now about what's already passed. What matters now is what they do for this kid tomorrow and beyond. You can keep beating this drum if you want, but I don't see what you're going to get out of it. What's done is done. Let's move on.
 
There really is a chance he could end up better than Bedard, and I mean offensively as well - has Bedard scored a goal equivalent to last night’s and the one against Seattle last year? I think those goals are why me and a few other people compared him to Malkin a bit.

I’m not even saying it’s above 50% but it isn’t like extremely low either.

I think Barkov is a decent comparison. I’m not crazy about a Kopitar comparison but I feel like I saw that more from Kings fans (trying to downplay Leo’s offense)
 
  • Like
Reactions: AngelDuck
There really is a chance he could end up better than Bedard, and I mean offensively as well - has Bedard scored a goal equivalent to last night’s and the one against Seattle last year? I think those goals are why me and a few other people compared him to Malkin a bit.

I’m not even saying it’s above 50% but it isn’t like extremely low either.

I think Barkov is a decent comparison. I’m not crazy about a Kopitar comparison but I feel like I saw that more from Kings fans (trying to downplay Leo’s offense)
There’s a chance that Carlsson and Fantilli end up better than Mitchkov and Bedard

And I personally think Malkin is the best comparison for Leo too but perhaps better defensively and more of a playmaker than goal scorer in the end.
 
Did a little digging on NHL edge stats but, while we all know that the predraft criticisms of Leo's skating were bullshit, it's kind of amusing to see the data.

1000001149.jpg


By way of comparison on that top skating speed, Fantilli is in the 96th percentile. And Leo is not far off McDavid's top skating speed on the season (23.97).

Interesting to see Cutter's range too. The stats show he's an even more consistent burst skater while not having quite the same top end speed.

1000001151.jpg


Either way this is why I keep rooting for this pairing to stick. Even with Leo shooting the puck more there's no denying his playmaking capabilities. Having a sniper like Cutter who is basically just as fast, it's a pairing that just makes sense.

There really is a chance he could end up better than Bedard, and I mean offensively as well - has Bedard scored a goal equivalent to last night’s and the one against Seattle last year? I think those goals are why me and a few other people compared him to Malkin a bit.

I’m not even saying it’s above 50% but it isn’t like extremely low either.

I think Barkov is a decent comparison. I’m not crazy about a Kopitar comparison but I feel like I saw that more from Kings fans (trying to downplay Leo’s offense)
I mean I think the Kopitar comparison is fine in context. Stylistically I don't totally see it but that's a possible outcome for the kid. Kopitar has shown in his later years that having less focus on defense allows him to provide high offense in spite of getting older and slower. My read is Kopitar always had the offensive chops but was more worried than most about responsible defensive play. If that becomes Leo's mentality, where offense is secondary to making sure the team is covered defensively, it could be limiting on his production somewhat. It wouldn't be the worst outcome but I think we'd all prefer if Leo can develop into in the most important piece of the team's offensive engine.
 
Did a little digging on NHL edge stats but, while we all know that the predraft criticisms of Leo's skating were bullshit, it's kind of amusing to see the data.

View attachment 1001870

By way of comparison on that top skating speed, Fantilli is in the 96th percentile. And Leo is not far off McDavid's top skating speed on the season (23.97).

Interesting to see Cutter's range too. The stats show he's an even more consistent burst skater while not having quite the same top end speed.

View attachment 1001872

Either way this is why I keep rooting for this pairing to stick. Even with Leo shooting the puck more there's no denying his playmaking capabilities. Having a sniper like Cutter who is basically just as fast, it's a pairing that just makes sense.


I mean I think the Kopitar comparison is fine in context. Stylistically I don't totally see it but that's a possible outcome for the kid. Kopitar has shown in his later years that having less focus on defense allows him to provide high offense in spite of getting older and slower. My read is Kopitar always had the offensive chops but was more worried than most about responsible defensive play. If that becomes Leo's mentality, where offense is secondary to making sure the team is covered defensively, it could be limiting on his production somewhat. It wouldn't be the worst outcome but I think we'd all prefer if Leo can develop into in the most important piece of the team's offensive engine.
Maybe it’s just me, but I think Carlsson even early on has done stuff that I’ve never seen Kopitar do. For me at least, the comparison alright I guess because they are both tall, European centres who are good defensively, but I’ve seen Leo try stuff that other guys wouldn’t even think to do, not that it always works out for him. He’s had a ton of almosts this year. I think offensively they look kind of different for some reason but a matter of opinion.

I think of a Kopitar comparison as potentially minimizing what i personally think Leo’s offensive potential is, and maybe that’s higher than some. I think there were some Kings fans comparing the two around the draft and after and it always sort of felt to me they didn’t want to imagine that this guy could be more dynamic, and potentially by a decent margin, but maybe I’m just being cynical. But I don’t think I’ve seen that comparison a ton from us or other fans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Boo Boo
Maybe it’s just me, but I think Carlsson even early on has done stuff that I’ve never seen Kopitar do. For me at least, the comparison alright I guess because they are both tall, European centres who are good defensively, but I’ve seen Leo try stuff that other guys wouldn’t even think to do, not that it always works out for him. He’s had a ton of almosts this year. I think offensively they look kind of different for some reason but a matter of opinion.

I think of a Kopitar comparison as potentially minimizing what i personally think Leo’s offensive potential is, and maybe that’s higher than some. I think there were some Kings fans comparing the two around the draft and after and it always sort of felt to me they didn’t want to imagine that this could guy be more dynamic, and potentially by a decent margin, but maybe I’m just being cynical. But I don’t think I’ve seen that comparison a ton from us or other fans.
No that's totally fair. I don't think Kopitar, even at his best offensively, was a guy who utilized offensive dynamism or creativity to produce. He's more of a pure fundamentals kind of offensive talent. That's, I think what ultimately separated Getzlaf and Kopi at least as far as offense was concerned (to say nothing of Getzlaf always had a meaner streak and utilized his size and strength to use physicality in his defense more than Kopi). Getzlaf was a guy that relied on size to back defenders off to create space and time for himself to execute passes that most players would never think of trying and he had the hands, vision, skill and experimental risk taking to pull plays off (granted he also had more than his fair share of no look passes to no one).

I think that's why I keep beating this drum of wanting to see Leo play more of a controlled possession type game in the offensive zone because you're right, he has the smarts and creativity to try and execute things most players wouldn't even think of or at least wouldn't feel comfortable trying. But I think with his mix of size, skill, vision, smarts, he has everything he needs to be more of a guy that drives the offense and possession of his entire line than we've seen so far. Cronin saying he wants Leo to be more of a net driver runs the risk of snuffing that aspect of his game out. That's not to say he can't switch off between shifts where he's driving the net and others where he's being a play driver, but I just wouldn't want to see this team limit what he can bring to the table.

If we end up with a 1c that is well above average in concerning himself with defensive responsibility who primarily plays a counter rush/crash the net style of offense...we can still have a bona fide 1c and a productive one. I think Leo can and should be more than that though. My worry is that the current development mentality could be the difference between a 75-85 point 1c and a 90-100 point 1c. The former is still a fantastic outcome. But would it be the most ideal one? I'd say no.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr Rogers
Maybe it’s just me, but I think Carlsson even early on has done stuff that I’ve never seen Kopitar do. For me at least, the comparison alright I guess because they are both tall, European centres who are good defensively, but I’ve seen Leo try stuff that other guys wouldn’t even think to do, not that it always works out for him. He’s had a ton of almosts this year. I think offensively they look kind of different for some reason but a matter of opinion.

I think of a Kopitar comparison as potentially minimizing what i personally think Leo’s offensive potential is, and maybe that’s higher than some. I think there were some Kings fans comparing the two around the draft and after and it always sort of felt to me they didn’t want to imagine that this guy could be more dynamic, and potentially by a decent margin, but maybe I’m just being cynical. But I don’t think I’ve seen that comparison a ton from us or other fans.
Kopitar has exactly one highlight I can recall of blowing by a defender and pulling off a high skill play - and it was against Chris Pronger in his rookie season. Aside from that, he’s mainly a remarkable player off the cycle and along the walls and is obviously one of the best defensive forwards of my lifetime

Kopitar is a great player and a 1st ballot hall of famer

But Like you said, Leo has a different level of offensive skill and dynamism to him. He has the raw skill of a MacKinnon of Malkin IMO
 
Rangers broadcast was gushing all over him before, during , and after the game.

Love when Sam Rosen does that he just has a respect for players around the league especially the younger ones who are starting to perform well.
Rosen is a really good commentator, I’ll miss him . I didn’t know he was retiring til yesterday, really classy of the Ducks to recognize him too
 
Here is some manually tracked data from Corey Sznajder. It's only from whatever games he's worked on, but still a nice snapshot of his strengths and weaknesses.
View attachment 1001876
All of this checks out in the eye test: the dark blue bars are all things that he can do on his own, things he's really good at.

His worst trait is one timer/60 and that's because his linemates haven't been able to hit a one-timer to save their lives.
 
Did a little digging on NHL edge stats but, while we all know that the predraft criticisms of Leo's skating were bullshit, it's kind of amusing to see the data.

View attachment 1001870

By way of comparison on that top skating speed, Fantilli is in the 96th percentile. And Leo is not far off McDavid's top skating speed on the season (23.97).

Interesting to see Cutter's range too. The stats show he's an even more consistent burst skater while not having quite the same top end speed.

View attachment 1001872

Either way this is why I keep rooting for this pairing to stick. Even with Leo shooting the puck more there's no denying his playmaking capabilities. Having a sniper like Cutter who is basically just as fast, it's a pairing that just makes sense.


I mean I think the Kopitar comparison is fine in context. Stylistically I don't totally see it but that's a possible outcome for the kid. Kopitar has shown in his later years that having less focus on defense allows him to provide high offense in spite of getting older and slower. My read is Kopitar always had the offensive chops but was more worried than most about responsible defensive play. If that becomes Leo's mentality, where offense is secondary to making sure the team is covered defensively, it could be limiting on his production somewhat. It wouldn't be the worst outcome but I think we'd all prefer if Leo can develop into in the most important piece of the team's offensive engine.
Skating alone will make him much better offensively than Kopitar. I don't expect him to be elite defensively like Kopitar and Getzlaf but he will be good defensively.

In terms of speeds its like Kopitar is driving a cold war era Yugo lol and Leo is driving a Swedish sports car the Koenigsegg Agera RS :)
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mr Rogers
Skating alone will make him much better offensively than Kopitar. I don't expect him to be elite defensively like Kopitar and Getzlaf but he will be good defensively.

In terms of speeds its like Kopitar is driving a cold war era Yugo lol and Leo is driving a Swedish sports car the Koenigsegg Agera RS :)
Leo is the Audi Allroad of hockey players for me (or maybe a Volvo V90 haha). A perfect combo of performance, style and ruggedness
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anaheim4ever

Ad

Ad