Player Discussion Leo Carlsson

[ohcomeonref]

If it pays off it will be worth it imo, but that’s a big if and a boring present

Agreed. Swedish Bergeron gogo,

 

[Mr Rogers]

I think Leo is an offense-first guy through and through but who can be very respectable defensively. I’m not sure if left to his own devices he’d become this exceptional defensive player in addition to his offense.

I don’t want him to be groomed into being a Selke contender. I’d actually rather him focus squarely on his offense and just let the defensive side come through his strong IQ but doubt they’ll let him.

 

[Leonardo87]

I think Leo is an offense-first guy through and through but who can be very respectable defensively. I’m not sure if left to his own devices he’d become this exceptional defensive player in addition to his offense.

I don’t want him to be groomed into being a Selke contender. I’d actually rather him focus squarely on his offense and just let the defensive side come through his strong IQ but doubt they’ll let him.

Think Barkov like. He didn’t really break out till his 3rd or 4th season in the NHL. See a lot of similarities in their games.

 

[Mr Rogers]

Think Barkov like. He didn’t really break out till his 3rd or 4th season in the NHL. See a lot of similarities in their games.

It’s possible. I’m curious if the Panthers emphasized defense a lot with him or if he just matured into a responsible player. I’m just not a fan of the Zegras treatment where you have these talented players but all you hear is how they have to improve defensively.

We need these guys to be able to play at high-octane levels in order to eventually compete with other teams. Having them flourish offensively should be the #1 priority I guess imo and just let them figure out D later, but I’m not sure that’s gonna happen with any of these guys. And this isn’t really a Cronin thing, it’s very much coming from PV.

 

[Leonardo87]

It’s possible. I’m curious if the Panthers emphasized defense a lot with him or if he just matured into a responsible player. I’m just not a fan of the Zegras treatment where you have these talented players but all you hear is how they have to improve defensively.

We need these guys to be able to play at high-octane levels in order to eventually compete with other teams. Having them flourish offensively should be the #1 priority I guess imo and just let them figure out D later, but I’m not sure that’s gonna happen with any of these guys. And this isn’t really a Cronin thing, it’s very much coming from PV.

I think if Cronin and Verbeek are serious about grooming Leo into a legit two-way 1C he should be killing some penalties. Ducks PK is not good, so really can’t hurt to try it.

I do agree he needs to produce more, but as much blame has been on him, rightfully so, the same amount should be on the coaching and team. The PP for one has become a black hole for offense, and I am not sure they know what they are doing anymore on it. A lot of point production lost because of a putrid PP….Also, seriously think they’d be a few games over .500 now if not for poor special teams holding them back.

 

[Mr Rogers]

I think if Cronin and Verbeek are serious about grooming Leo into a legit two-way 1C he should be killing some penalties. Ducks PK is not good, so really can’t hurt to try it.

I do agree he needs to produce more, but as much blame has been on him, rightfully so, the same amount should be on the coaching and team. The PP for one has become a black hole for offense, and I am not sure they know what they are doing anymore on it. A lot of point production lost because of a putrid PP….Also, seriously think they’d be a few games over .500 now if not for poor special teams holding them back.

Agree with all. And im not even talking about Leo this season or only Leo. It’s all the young guys. The mindset for the future has to be offense-first. Let them develop their defense along the way and acquire defensive-minded forwards, who are much easier to find, if needed.

 

[ZegrassyKnoll]

I think if Cronin and Verbeek are serious about grooming Leo into a legit two-way 1C he should be killing some penalties. Ducks PK is not good, so really can’t hurt to try it.

I do agree he needs to produce more, but as much blame has been on him, rightfully so, the same amount should be on the coaching and team. The PP for one has become a black hole for offense, and I am not sure they know what they are doing anymore on it. A lot of point production lost because of a putrid PP….Also, seriously think they’d be a few games over .500 now if not for poor special teams holding them back.

Verbeek said they were going to at the start of the season. Emphasized a “power kill.”

Little did he know he would be right, the ducks would have a power kill.

 

[Leonardo87]

Verbeek said they were going to at the start of the season. Emphasized a “power kill.”

Little did he know he would be right, the ducks would have a power kill.

The only mystery is how are the Islanders PP worse than the Ducks. Lol.

 

[ZegrassyKnoll]

The only mystery is how are the Islanders PP worse than the Ducks. Lol.

Genuinely baffling… I cannot imagine a worse unit

 

[JAHV]

I think Leo is an offense-first guy through and through but who can be very respectable defensively. I’m not sure if left to his own devices he’d become this exceptional defensive player in addition to his offense.

I don’t want him to be groomed into being a Selke contender. I’d actually rather him focus squarely on his offense and just let the defensive side come through his strong IQ but doubt they’ll let him.

I pretty firmly disagree with this. Leo's defensive instincts are the best on the team among forwards. I think expecting him to be a Bergeron or Kopitar might be pushing it a bit, but not much. I think Leo absolutely can be elite defensively and I understand why the Ducks want him to develop that.

I think his offensive game is suffering from confidence. I don't think the Ducks are doing him any favors with Cronin's severe defense-first mentality. But I do think it's realistic that Carlsson could be a Selke guy, and I would love it.

I agree that Carlsson should be killing penalties. I think he'd be one of the best on the team at it immediately.

 

[Mr Rogers]

I pretty firmly disagree with this. Leo's defensive instincts are the best on the team among forwards. I think expecting him to be a Bergeron or Kopitar might be pushing it a bit, but not much. I think Leo absolutely can be elite defensively and I understand why the Ducks want him to develop that.

I think his offensive game is suffering from confidence. I don't think the Ducks are doing him any favors with Cronin's severe defense-first mentality. But I do think it's realistic that Carlsson could be a Selke guy, and I would love it.

I agree that Carlsson should be killing penalties. I think he'd be one of the best on the team at it immediately.

yeah we couldn’t disagree more based on this. I’d personally hate to see Leo become a regular PKer and wouldn’t bat an eye if he never got close to winning a Selke.

We have different ideas I guess for what we want this player to become. And I never said Leo couldn’t be great defensively, I just don’t see an innate bias of that in his game.

 

[JAHV]

yeah we couldn’t disagree more based on this. I’d personally hate to see Leo become a regular PKer and wouldn’t bat an eye if he never got close to winning a Selke.

We have different ideas I guess for what we want this player to become. And I never said Leo couldn’t be great defensively, I just don’t see an innate bias of that in his game.

Great players play both ways. Getzlaf was so valuable because of that. Leo's backchecking is already very good. He clearly has that naturally in his game.

I would love to see him PKing regularly. I actually don't think you can be a great/elite 1C unless you play in all situations. Leo has that potential.

 

[Mr Rogers]

Great players play both ways. Getzlaf was so valuable because of that. Leo's backchecking is already very good. He clearly has that naturally in his game.

I would love to see him PKing regularly.

his stamina already isn’t the greatest and PK’ing also increases the risk of injury to an already somewhat fragile player, I can’t emphasize it enough how frustrating that’d be to see on a regular basis.

Leo is a smart player with good work ethic, it’s leading to smart defensive plays. But he’s a huge risk taker with the puck and the situations he skates into, we see him differently in terms of instincts, beauty’s in the eye of the beholder.

 

[ScarTroy]

I wouldn’t want Leo PK’ing all 82 games, but I think eventually him becoming somewhat regular on the PK and an option in the playoffs (if we ever get there) would be a good idea. He has tremendous defensive reads for his age.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Here's what happened to Silfy when he was put in strictly a defensive situation, from his recent interview:

But how could it turn out like it did in the World Cup?​

​

– I know damn well, actually. I think I was a little mentally broken. We had missed the playoffs several years in a row. I had had a defensive role in Anaheim, where I just played simply: one touch, edge out – not offensive. I couldn’t switch to the WC. I wanted to contribute more offensively, but had a hard time getting into situations and the puck wasn’t bouncing my way.​

Silf's first year back in the SHL, he's leading his team points, goal scoring, in top-10 scoring for SHL, and top-5 in goal scoring for SHL. Silf actually earned the golden helmet before going to NA. Carlsson has never reached that level of offense before. If we don't get an offensive-minded coach, then we might ruin Carlsson's offense for a while.

 

[AngelDuck]

i just don’t get the defense-first thing personally. It reeks of the coaching staff firmly believing that defense is more important than offense for a forward

To me, it’s pretty obvious that that isn’t true. It’s important but it’s certainly not the most important thing for a forward that hopes to become a top line player. At the end of the day, you’re only a top line forward in the NHL if you can put up 75-100 points these days. People comparing him to Bergeron forget that Patrice played in a much lower scoring era and was a very good offensive player his whole career. He wouldn’t be remembered as such a great player if he wasn’t.

For the defensemen…sure whatever. But for the forwards drafted in the top 10? Hell no

At the end of the day we need these guys to be High point producers. Is this the best way to get them to become that? I’m really skeptical of the philosophy

 

[2faded]

It seems that this defense first thinking assumes that once they learn the defense side, then they'll turn on the offense and be a well rounded player. But that only really works if the players are already done maturing offensively. But, they're not. They still need to develop their offense also (actually more important, imo). So even if they develop their defense, how many years lost of offense development is it going to take?

 

[ohcomeonref]

It seems that this defense first thinking assumes that once they learn the defense side, then they'll turn on the offense and be a well rounded player. But that only really works if the players are already done maturing offensively. But, they're not. They still need to develop their offense also (actually more important, imo). So even if they develop their defense, how many years lost of offense development is it going to take?

I'm terrified that our development philosophy is going to churn out 40 point defensively responsible 3rd and 2nd overall players.

 

[Mr Rogers]

Getzlaf wasn’t this great defensive player early in his career too. That developed much later in his career. Crosby wasn’t good defensively early on either. It’s a really bad idea to put that on these guys right away.

 

[JAHV]

Getzlaf wasn’t this great defensive player early in his career too. That developed much later in his career. Crosby wasn’t good defensively early on either. It’s a really bad idea to put that on these guys right away.

Getzlaf was taking regular shifts on the PK and got Selke votes at age 22.

Barkov was playing semi-regularly short-handed at age 19 and was taking regular PK shifts by age 20. Kopitar as well. Crosby was playing regularly on the PK by age 20 and it didn't seem to hurt his production.

If Leo is projected to be a great all-around player (and, from all I've seen, he is), he should be playing in situations that allow him to develop his already very good defensive skills.

 

[GermanRocket7]

Getzlaf was taking regular shifts on the PK and got Selke votes at age 22.

Which is still quite a few years ahead of Carlsson.

 

[Reveille1984]

I'm terrified that our development philosophy is going to churn out 40 point defensively responsible 3rd and 2nd overall players.

It's already happening, look at Mac and Zegras in years four/five of their pro careers.

These guys used to be at the forefront of Anaheim's hope of a successful rebuild, and currently they're basically 40 point players learning to be "defensively responsible".

Cronin's idea that offense will magically appear once guys learn defense is producing a team that instead just sucks at both.

 

[JAHV]

Which is still quite a few years ahead of Carlsson.

It was Getzlaf's third year in the league, so one year ahead of Carlsson in terms of NHL experience. Also, Getzlaf was playing on the PK the year before (he had a short-handed goal in his age 21 season), but the TOI breakdowns on hockey-reference don't go back before the 07-08 year, so I can't make any sort of data-based claim that Getzlaf was taking regular PK shifts. I wouldn't be surprised if he was, though.

 

[2faded]

It was Getzlaf's third year in the league, so one year ahead of Carlsson in terms of NHL experience. Also, Getzlaf was playing on the PK the year before (he had a short-handed goal in his age 21 season), but the TOI breakdowns on hockey-reference don't go back before the 07-08 year, so I can't make any sort of data-based claim that Getzlaf was taking regular PK shifts. I wouldn't be surprised if he was, though.

Third year in the league != age

 

[ZegrassyKnoll]

i just don’t get the defense-first thing personally. It reeks of the coaching staff firmly believing that defense is more important than offense for a forward

To me, it’s pretty obvious that that isn’t true. It’s important but it’s certainly not the most important thing for a forward that hopes to become a top line player. At the end of the day, you’re only a top line forward in the NHL if you can put up 75-100 points these days. People comparing him to Bergeron forget that Patrice played in a much lower scoring era and was a very good offensive player his whole career. He wouldn’t be remembered as such a great player if he wasn’t.

For the defensemen…sure whatever. But for the forwards drafted in the top 10? Hell no

At the end of the day we need these guys to be High point producers. Is this the best way to get them to become that? I’m really skeptical of the philosophy

To me it's less "defense is more important than offense" and more about instilling a "grinding" mindset in every player, from our stars to our 4th liners. Every FA signing and trade Pat has made points to that same mindset.

I really think Cronin is just some weird "boot camp" for what Pat sees as our core players to ingrain a "nobody is above back checking" mindset and high level of compete for the rest of their careers.

This is just me talking out of my ass and rationalizing the decisions made but honestly I kind of see the big picture working out. The decision to keep or fire Cronin at the end of this season I think will be really telling, in a lot of ways.