News Article: Lebreton...Interesting...NCC - PART 2

[Masked]

If this team wants to make money the last thing they should do is cater to people who live in Brockville or Casselman. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

The money is in neighborhoods like Westboro, the Glebe, Rockcliffe. That’s who the focus needs to be on. They’ll be the ones willing to pony up for tickets and 18 dollar beers.

The people whose biggest priority is getting onto the highway quickly after a game should have zero input into where this rink is built.

The people who can most afford to buy the best seats and splurge on concessions are not the people who will be taking public transit. They are the people in Westboro, the Glebe and Rockcliffe but also estates outside of Carp, Stittsville and Manotick.

 

[CallSaul]

The people who can most afford to buy the best seats and splurge on concessions are not the people who will be taking public transit. They are the people in Westboro, the Glebe and Rockcliffe but also estates outside of Carp, Stittsville and Manotick.

Those people will happily pay for an Uber or valet, and their priority will be getting a reservation at Riviera pregame, not getting onto the 417 by 9:41.

If you’re concerned about the shortest route to the highway after the game, you’re not the type of person this team will be focused on (when selling tickets).

Live sports are becoming a luxury good. It’ll be no different here. It’ll be fewer seats, higher prices, and a clientele looking for a better experience (food, drinks pre and post game, etc).

We’ll never be Toronto or New York, but the models we can follow are places like Minnesota, Columbus and Pittsburgh. If you’ve ever been to game in those cities, the rinks are all centrally located and if you want to drive, you end up parking at an adjacent surface or garage lot and walking 10-30 minutes.

They didn’t build rinks in shopping centrums so they could have 9k parking spots and make it convenient for people from the suburbs who want to get in and out as fast as possible.

 

[GCK]

Train yards is a complete no go. Lebreton is the best option outside of core downtown which ain’t happening.

 

[Masked]

We’ll never be Toronto or New York, but the models we can follow are places like Minnesota, Columbus and Pittsburgh. If you’ve ever been to game in those cities, the rinks are all centrally located and if you want to drive, you end up parking at an adjacent surface or garage lot and walking 10-30 minutes.

Those three arenas are all two blocks from interstate highways.

 

[CallSaul]

Those three arenas are all two blocks from interstate highways.

Not necessarily the on-ramps onto those highways.

Getting from Xcel onto I94 is over 1km, for example. The Lebreton site would be closer to a 417 on-ramp than that.

That people think Lebreton would be inaccessible is wild to me. Some need to get out of the suburbs and go to a city once in a while.

Like I said before, if you want to build an arena in a shopping plaza next to a Walmart and Golf Town because it’s slightly closer to a highway, you’re out of your mind.

And “people from Casselman could take the VIA in” might be the craziest thing I’ve ever heard.

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

I can't take a suggestion seriously that hinges on a hypothetical horde of fans who will hypothetically want to take a *VIA* train from Brockville to catch a Sens game.

We have a chance to scoop up some of the last major land parcels in the centre of the city, to make Lebreton a premier destination, to draw walk-up fans from Westboro, Hintonburg, Centretown, and even across the river... and people want to build out at Trainyards so we can plop down some parking lots for people to spend an hour in?

Yeah, and maybe they can pregame at the local Wendys and pick up some Sketchers from the outlet store while they're there.

 

[JD1]

There are a lot of complications with LeBreton that center in my view around the availability and reliability of public transportation

Let's just say for argument they start construction in the summer of 2025 and the rink is open September 2029. Right now, the reliability of the train is not good and the reputation of public transportation is bad. Very bad. Maybe Orleans gets the train in 2026. Western leg to Moodie in 2027. That might be hopeful.

Governments have said there's no more money for LRT until they get this entire $hit show sorted out. So when do they get started taking the train to Kanata? To Barrhaven? Throw in delays getting started and construction taking twice as long as planned (which is generous given the LRT history) and you're looking at maybe 2040. Two of the affluent suburbs containing over 200k can't take the train. There won't be parking for half the attendees. So it's bus. Then Train. If you want to go.

What about Gatineau. Where will they park? They won't. There's no parking. And it's a hike from the Portage bridge to where the arena is. It's great that you want to cater to the other side. It hasn't worked in 30 years. Why will it work now? They'll need park and ride shuttles. That sucks.

If I'm Andlauer, why am I looking at spending 500M and needing that much again from governments to build a rink that's dependent on public transportation when the public transportation system is the laughing stock or north American public transportation systems?

I'm not saying I have the answers, but spending that kind of money and being dependent on a public transportation system that's a joke is a pretty risky adventure.

 

[Stylizer1]

Trainyards?!...like where Sail is?

Yerp

 

[Crosside]

So they keep that until the last day

 

[PlayersLtd]

It’s insane how much people think parking and “traffic dispersion” should be factored into this. It encapsulates everything that’s wrong with Ottawa and why this city is where fun goes to die.

Most people are going to go to an event at the arena, whether a game or concert, 5-10 times a year? If that?

I mean jesus, is it that important to be back in Barrhaven 15 minutes faster?

The reason CTC sucks isn’t because it’s a drive and there’s only one on ramp onto the highway. The reason it sucks is because it’s a barren wasteland with nothing to do around it.

The idea of building a rink at Trainyards might be the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. Let’s build another arena where the biggest attraction near it will be a Walmart! Crazy talk.

So your plan would be to ignore how people get to the arena? Or are you advocating for that fleeting winter utopia where public transit gets the overwhelming majority of people there?

Efficiently moving people to and from and in and out of a venue is one of the most important things in stadium design and location. That can be done several ways but the old fashioned motor car is still a huge factor. This is especially true in a sprawling city like Ottawa where a growing majority live outside the core and the public transit system keeps tripping over itself.

And your 5-10 times number is a bit off. A good target for season ticket holders is 10,000. So more than half of the entire stadium are people going to a significant number of games.

And if you don't think the distance and traffic are a factor in the criticism behind the CTC you haven't been paying attention since like 1996.

 

[CallSaul]

So your plan would be to ignore how people get to the arena? Or are you advocating for that fleeting winter utopia where public transit gets the overwhelming majority of people there?

Efficiently moving people to and from and in and out of a venue is one of the most important things in stadium design and location. That can be done several ways but the old fashioned motor car is still a huge factor. This is especially true in a sprawling city like Ottawa where a growing majority live outside the core and the public transit system keeps tripping over itself.

And your 5-10 times number is a bit off. A good target for season ticket holders is 10,000. So more than half of the entire stadium are people going to a significant number of games.

And if you don't think the distance and traffic are a factor in the criticism behind the CTC you haven't been paying attention since like 1996.

An arena at Lebreton (whether in the current proposed location or if it’s moved closer to Booth) will be perfectly accessible for fans.

Whether you want to travel to games by car or public transport, you won’t have any problems.

People who think it’d be too inconvenient are ridiculous and need to leave the shopping centrums of Barrhaven and Kanata more often.

 

[Relapsing]

There are a lot of complications with LeBreton that center in my view around the availability and reliability of public transportation

Let's just say for argument they start construction in the summer of 2025 and the rink is open September 2029. Right now, the reliability of the train is not good and the reputation of public transportation is bad. Very bad. Maybe Orleans gets the train in 2026. Western leg to Moodie in 2027. That might be hopeful.

Governments have said there's no more money for LRT until they get this entire $hit show sorted out. So when do they get started taking the train to Kanata? To Barrhaven? Throw in delays getting started and construction taking twice as long as planned (which is generous given the LRT history) and you're looking at maybe 2040. Two of the affluent suburbs containing over 200k can't take the train. There won't be parking for half the attendees. So it's bus. Then Train. If you want to go.

What about Gatineau. Where will they park? They won't. There's no parking. And it's a hike from the Portage bridge to where the arena is. It's great that you want to cater to the other side. It hasn't worked in 30 years. Why will it work now? They'll need park and ride shuttles. That sucks.

If I'm Andlauer, why am I looking at spending 500M and needing that much again from governments to build a rink that's dependent on public transportation when the public transportation system is the laughing stock or north American public transportation systems?

I'm not saying I have the answers, but spending that kind of money and being dependent on a public transportation system that's a joke is a pretty risky adventure.

I mean what's the alternate here? Rinsing and repeating the same kind of location we have now - a rink surrounded by a parking field surrounded by box stores?

For better or worse, the LRT is and will continue to be the backbone of transit in Ottawa (short of a mayor/city council that rips the tracks out). Locating the arena in close proximity to, or connected directly to an LRT station is going to happen, and that's the correct decision for a myriad of reasons.

Don't even get me started about complaining that people will have to take the bus and then the LRT. For real? That's kind of the point. Funneling bus routes into a higher capacity system where it makes sense. Using mixed transit is common in every major city I've traveled to.

Anyways, I get everyone is all burnt out about the LRT system issues, the cost of transit, the reliability problems, and service reductions. I truly do. But to place a rink anywhere that's not within spitting distance of a station is about the most short sighted thing I can think of Andlauer doing with this franchise.

There's a cold irony to be found in realizing that if people only voted in a mayor and council who ran on raising property taxes, Octranspo wouldn't be staring down the barrel of more service cuts. But alas, the suburbs voted in a mayor and councilors who ran on not raising their property taxes. These same people who have chosen a lifestyle where they have to drive everywhere and therefore don't use the transit system are, I expect, some of the same people who advocate prioritizing vehicle access to the rink. A stretch, I know.

Perhaps some exposure to an underfunded transit system would do them, and us all, some good. Make them think twice about those proposed tax increases to ensure we can all enjoy an effective transit system that gives us ready access to a rink where a sell out crowd can pile into a mass transit system to disperse through the system, or walk to a local bar and get absolutely shit faced after a game because the rink is located downtown and not in f***ing trainyards.

 

[zenator]

Here's an interesting scenario...

Lets say the Sens can't make a deal with the NCC for Lebreton. Then the team makes a deal with the city for Bayview Yards next door.

Bayview meets the Ottawa River Parkway which would be the natural western egress for Sens fans driving after a game.

What if the NCC gets all petty and vengeful and won't allow the Sens traffic to exit to the Parkway?

Then what?

That would be stupid, so I'd expect the PM of the day to overrule the NCC, but what if the PM then is an anti-business extremist?

Note: I don't expect any of this to happen, I'm just raising this odd scenario to discuss, as it unlikely but not impossible.

 

[CallSaul]

There are a lot of complications with LeBreton that center in my view around the availability and reliability of public transportation

Let's just say for argument they start construction in the summer of 2025 and the rink is open September 2029. Right now, the reliability of the train is not good and the reputation of public transportation is bad. Very bad. Maybe Orleans gets the train in 2026. Western leg to Moodie in 2027. That might be hopeful.

Governments have said there's no more money for LRT until they get this entire $hit show sorted out. So when do they get started taking the train to Kanata? To Barrhaven? Throw in delays getting started and construction taking twice as long as planned (which is generous given the LRT history) and you're looking at maybe 2040. Two of the affluent suburbs containing over 200k can't take the train. There won't be parking for half the attendees. So it's bus. Then Train. If you want to go.

What about Gatineau. Where will they park? They won't. There's no parking. And it's a hike from the Portage bridge to where the arena is. It's great that you want to cater to the other side. It hasn't worked in 30 years. Why will it work now? They'll need park and ride shuttles. That sucks.

If I'm Andlauer, why am I looking at spending 500M and needing that much again from governments to build a rink that's dependent on public transportation when the public transportation system is the laughing stock or north American public transportation systems?

I'm not saying I have the answers, but spending that kind of money and being dependent on a public transportation system that's a joke is a pretty risky adventure.

Have people ever been downtown? There are parking options everywhere. Parking won’t be a problem if you choose to drive.

 

[CallSaul]

Yerp

Fans will be able to hit up Bulk Barn and buy a new button up at the Gap pre game. What an experience!

BTW, have you ever been driven from the Walmart at Trainyards to the 417 W on-ramp on a Saturday afternoon? What makes you think this would be an efficient place to put an arena? Cramming 10k cars onto the Vanier Parkway will get people on their way quickly?

I guess I shouldn’t forget about the 17 fans who’ll take Via from Casselman…

 

[Loach]

Yerp

Don't you dare take away the fishing store!

 

[PlayersLtd]

An arena at Lebreton (whether in the current proposed location or if it’s moved closer to Booth) will be perfectly accessible for fans.

Whether you want to travel to games by car or public transport, you won’t have any problems.

People who think it’d be too inconvenient are ridiculous and need to leave the shopping centrums of Barrhaven and Kanata more often.

I don't think you should interpret people arguing in favour of an arena near the Queensway as a knock on the accessibility of Lebreton. Not sure if I've heard anyone say that Lebreton isn't a good physical location.

Personally I would love to see an arena close to the core (but not Lebreton for other reasons) but there are merits behind other locations and anyone advocating for something near the Queensway has a point that it would draw more people from the suburbs like Kanata, Nepean and Orleans where a significant percentage of the fanbase lives.

Not my jam because I want to see a nice little entertainment district spring up around it with an urban feeling and I don't think you get that from say the Trainyards, but you would at Tunneys or Bayview which are near the top of my list of known potential locations.

 

[CallSaul]

I don't think you should interpret people arguing in favour of an arena near the Queensway as a knock on the accessibility of Lebreton. Not sure if I've heard anyone say that Lebreton isn't a good physical location.

Personally I would love to see an arena close to the core (but not Lebreton for other reasons) but there are merits behind other locations and anyone advocating for something near the Queensway has a point that it would draw more people from the suburbs like Kanata, Nepean and Orleans where a significant percentage of the fanbase lives.

Not my jam because I want to see a nice little entertainment district spring up around it with an urban feeling and I don't think you get that from say the Trainyards, but you would at Tunneys or Bayview which are near the top of my list of known potential locations.

What would make Bayview or Tunneys more accessible than Lebreton? The benefit of those locations, for ownership, would be that, theoretically, working with just the City would be faster than dealing with the NCC. And you may be able to get a bit more land. But from a driving perspective, they’re not any better and they’re further from the core.

But to be frank, I don’t believe for a second that Sutcliffe would make anything happen. His pie in the sky musings (I.e tearing down government buildings in the core to make room for a rink) have been completely ridiculous.

Whether it’s the NCC or the city, it’s going to be painful.

And the options that have been floated “near” the Queensway (Trainyards or the baseball stadium) are bad options, but knowing the people and politicians of this city, going with one of those seems right up their alley.

Then people will spend the next 30 years getting into their cars 5 minutes before the end of their 3rd period so they can sit in traffic waiting to get onto the 417 at the same time as everyone else because there’s nothing else to do.

My general point, though, is that for every Kanata resident who’d stay home because a new downtown rink is slightly harder to drive to, there’d be two people who don’t go to games today, who would actually want to go, because it’d be a real night out.

 

[Cosmix]

So your plan would be to ignore how people get to the arena? Or are you advocating for that fleeting winter utopia where public transit gets the overwhelming majority of people there?

Efficiently moving people to and from and in and out of a venue is one of the most important things in stadium design and location. That can be done several ways but the old fashioned motor car is still a huge factor. This is especially true in a sprawling city like Ottawa where a growing majority live outside the core and the public transit system keeps tripping over itself.

And your 5-10 times number is a bit off. A good target for season ticket holders is 10,000. So more than half of the entire stadium are people going to a significant number of games.

And if you don't think the distance and traffic are a factor in the criticism behind the CTC you haven't been paying attention since like 1996.

Lebreton is a good site for access via the LRT; it is not good for access via automobiles. The City will have to address that issue so that traffic is not overwhelming the roads. Better quick access to the Queensway will be required to get the traffic moving east, west, north and south.

 

[Masked]

Have people ever been downtown? There are parking options everywhere. Parking won’t be a problem if you choose to drive.

No. No one on here has ever been downtown. You're the only one. Congrats on being so special.

 

[Masked]

Fans will be able to hit up Bulk Barn and buy a new button up at the Gap pre game. What an experience!

BTW, have you ever been driven from the Walmart at Trainyards to the 417 W on-ramp on a Saturday afternoon? What makes you think this would be an efficient place to put an arena? Cramming 10k cars onto the Vanier Parkway will get people on their way quickly?

I guess I shouldn’t forget about the 17 fans who’ll take Via from Casselman…

Also shouldn't forget about the fans who want to take the LRT if it's running. Or the fans who take the bus because it's also served by the transitway. Or the fans who live near by and just walk.

FYI, you don't take the Vanier Parkway to get on the Queensway from Trainyards. Are you sure you're from Ottawa?

 

[CallSaul]

Also shouldn't forget about the fans who want to take the LRT if it's running. Or the fans who take the bus because it's also served by the transitway. Or the fans who live near by and just walk.

FYI, you don't take the Vanier Parkway to get on the Queensway from Trainyards. Are you sure you're from Ottawa?

Riverside Drive turns into the Vanier Parkway after you pass Tremblay Road. The 417 W on-ramp next to Ottawa Stadium is off of the Vanier Parkway.

I suppose if you’re going W you could backtrack and get on the 417 off of St.Laurent, but if your priority is to get home from a game as soon as possible, that probably wouldn’t help you. Especially since it’d be jammed with people going back to Orleans.

Also, in regards to alternate ways to and from, it’d be even better at Lebreton.

- Some people would drive to and from the West end. Some from the East end. Some from Gatineau.
- Some people would take the LRT from either direction.
- Some people would take the bus from any which way.
- Some people would walk from their house in Centretown or Little Italy. Others might walk from their office in the core.

And you’d also get the benefit of staggered arrival and departure times! Some people would come down early and have dinner and stay late for a drink. Others would take their time leaving after the game. And there’s still be the group rushing to the doors with 5 mins left.

But yeah, let’s bypass all of those positives so we can have a bigger parking lot and Jim from Kanata can get on the 417 in 10 mins instead of 15.

 

[CallSaul]

No. No one on here has ever been downtown. You're the only one. Congrats on being so special.

If you think that there is a lack of parking options, I do question whether you’ve ever been down here.

What do you think people do during Bluesfest, which brings 30k people to a field at Lebreton?

 

[PlayersLtd]

What would make Bayview or Tunneys more accessible than Lebreton? The benefit of those locations, for ownership, would be that, theoretically, working with just the City would be faster than dealing with the NCC. And you may be able to get a bit more land. But from a driving perspective, they’re not any better and they’re further from the core.

I never said they were better or worse. All three are passable with the exception of Lebreton having no known solution for parking, as highlighted by Andlauer.

But to be frank, I don’t believe for a second that Sutcliffe would make anything happen. His pie in the sky musings (I.e tearing down government buildings in the core to make room for a rink) have been completely ridiculous.

Sutcliffe like all mayors is pining for a legacy and nothing is bigger than getting an arena done, especially considering all the boondoggles the last administration was wrapped up in.

He is pro business and vocally pro Sens. With a declining downtown, the legacy of the trucker convoy, the constant chatter of the Sens relocating and the Melnyk saga and perpetually living in the shadows of Toronto and Montreal Ottawa needs a boost now more than ever. Nothing would achieve that like than a big arena project. Just look at what it has done for Edmonton and Detroit. Mayors drool over these opportunities and Sutcliffe is as hungry as anyone.

Whether it’s the NCC or the city, it’s going to be painful.

The City has the potential to be relatively smooth considering the partnerships and the right location. The Malholtras have as much development experience and respect as anyone and it would be their team working with the City. Add to that a huge appetite by everyone to create something special (and I would assume a healthy budget if a good land deal and provincial help was involved) and I think you have the potential for a green light.

The NCC on the other hand. Yes, that will be an absolute nightmare imo.

And the options that have been floated “near” the Queensway (Trainyards or the baseball stadium) are bad options, but knowing the people and politicians of this city, going with one of those seems right up their alley.

Then people will spend the next 30 years getting into their cars 5 minutes before the end of their 3rd period so they can sit in traffic waiting to get onto the 417 at the same time as everyone else because there’s nothing else to do.

My general point, though, is that for every Kanata resident who’d stay home because a new downtown rink is slightly harder to drive to, there’d be two people who don’t go to games today, who would actually want to go, because it’d be a real night out.

I think you're overestimating the density of the city. Ottawa is a sprawling city and you can't neglect the suburbs. Thats not to say the only option is to build close to the Queensway but you need to drive season ticket sales and thats going to happen outside of the core where people, by and large, have more disposable income. Catering to that, and the people that are going to rage on tinder dates and overpriced martinis is not a one or the other proposition.

However I will say this. You don't want 20k people showing up early and leaving the stadium late. That's a sure fire way to spoil it for the small percentage of people in this city that will actually spend the money you are talking about. The before and after supply at a hockey stadium is limited to a handful of in house restaurants. So yes, getting people out of there is more important than you think.

 

[CallSaul]

I never said they were better or worse. All three are passable with the exception of Lebreton having no known solution for parking, as highlighted by Andlauer.



Sutcliffe like all mayors is pining for a legacy and nothing is bigger than getting an arena done, especially considering all the boondoggles the last administration was wrapped up in.

He is pro business and vocally pro Sens. With a declining downtown, the legacy of the trucker convoy, the constant chatter of the Sens relocating and the Melnyk saga and perpetually living in the shadows of Toronto and Montreal Ottawa needs a boost now more than ever. Nothing would achieve that like than a big arena project. Just look at what it has done for Edmonton and Detroit. Mayors drool over these opportunities and Sutcliffe is as hungry as anyone.



The City has the potential to be relatively smooth considering the partnerships and the right location. The Malholtras have as much development experience and respect as anyone and it would be their team working with the City. Add to that a huge appetite by everyone to create something special (and I would assume a healthy budget if a good land deal and provincial help was involved) and I think you have the potential for a green light.

The NCC on the other hand. Yes, that will be an absolute nightmare imo.


I think you're overestimating the density of the city. Ottawa is a sprawling city and you can't neglect the suburbs. Thats not to say the only option is to build close to the Queensway but you need to drive season ticket sales and thats going to happen outside of the core where people, by and large, have more disposable income. Catering to that, and the people that are going to rage on tinder dates and overpriced martinis is not a one or the other proposition.

However I will say this. You don't want 20k people showing up early and leaving the stadium late. That's a sure fire way to spoil it for the small percentage of people in this city that will actually spend the money you are talking about. The before and after supply at a hockey stadium is limited to a handful of in house restaurants. So yes, getting people out of there is more important than you think.

Well the problem with Sutcliffes “vision” is that the city doesn’t control any of the desired locations in the “core”. DND isn’t getting out of that building anytime soon. Demolishing L’Esplanade Laurier, or any other building housing federal government employees for that matter, is a pipe dream. And Confederation park is NCC and that wouldn’t happen in a million years.

What options does he have? Bayview, which sure can have more parking, but is equally as challenging from a traffic perspective as Lebreton, but even further from the core. The baseball stadium… which, same thing but even worse considering you can’t walk anywhere.

And then you have Tunneys, Trainyards, etc which are just bad options if you want an “entertainment district”.

So if you want more parking plus a new district around the rink, where are you finding the acreage in the core? There are zero options bigger than the available land at Lebreton, as it’s currently divided, and even that is too small according to Leeder and Bettman.

I’ve yet to hear a realistic option voiced by Sutcliffe. It’s just high level “closer to the core” nonsense. Par for the course for a guy who talks a lot but does little. It’s worse than the NCC’s stupidity.

What’s the move? I suppose he could tear down City Hall and build it there!

And in terms of “neglecting the suburbs”, I never said that. But we have 30 years of proof of what it’s like catering to the suburbs. And guess what, it’s been pretty bad. Obviously this is not just due to where the rink is, but we’ve had consistent ups and downs with attendance and it can’t be argued that going to an NHL game in Ottawa is among the worst experiences in the league.

I work at a tech company in the core and it’s hard for us to get people to come to the box we own (it’s a small group over and over) because the young employees with lots of disposable income that we have aren’t all that excited about going for a night out in Kanata.

So maybe we should cater to the core neighborhoods (plus Gatineau) and see how that goes. If we see 13k crowds and ticket drives because the team is going bankrupt since there’s not enough onsite parking, we can move it back to Kanata or Barrhaven in 30 years.

The only realistic option is getting the NCC to open up a slightly bigger parcel at Lebreton for the rink (and I would bet that happens).

If it doesn’t happen, the team is staying at the CTC for the next 10+ years. And if that’s what it comes to, Andlauer will be shaming fans in the media for not going to games in no time, just like our past owners have done. But there’ll be ample parking!

Also, the benefit of a Lebreton rink is you’d never have 20k people coming and going at the same time, which is what happens in Kanata, because there’s nothing else to do but get there at 7 and leave at 930.