Post-Game Talk: Leafs WIN! -> Summer of Dorion continues

[MCR74]

This one, along with Tkachuk having a temper tantrum after Muzzin absolutely played him like a fiddle are 2 of my absolute favourites.

Would love for someone to put them together so I can watch them over and over and over and........

Good on Zahorna for making good in the little opportunity he's had thus far, and cheers to Samsonov getting the shut-out.

Always feels good to beat the Senaturds, whether the game matters or not.

Go Leafs Go!

Doesn't Dorion realize how much that beverage costs? Melnyk couldn't have been happy.

 

[notDatsyuk]

That's not the player in question.

Looks like Zenon Andrewsyshen (sp?) stats. The "Big Z", mentioned in another post.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Chychrun
Hamonic
Chabot
Brassard
Forsberg

View attachment 680378

Perhaps we don't have to act all superior after a game like that.

Perhaps we should pay more attention to what happened and less to what someone thinks maybe should have perhaps been expected to have happened.

 

[egd27]

Perhaps we should pay more attention to what happened and less to what someone thinks maybe should have perhaps been expected to have happened.

So we can only use the winometer when it’s our favour. Got it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

So we can only use the winometer when it’s our favour. Got it.

I would rather not use the whine-o-meter at all, but the actual game.

 

[Hellcat]

Murray's had some very good games recently, some of the games where he allowed 4 goals he was our best player as the rest of the guys didn't even show up.

Awesome you think he was our best player in some of those games eh? So he's played well enough recently to be your pick for starter in game 1 in the playoffs?

 

[Hellcat]

Those 52 shots he faced against Ottawa with their season pretty much on the line when we won in the shootout were tied for the 2nd most allowed in a game since 2007 (I stopped looking before that too). I think that he (and that game) broke their spirit.

He had one game where his SV% was pretty high, keep it in context it was against the 19th best scoring team in the league, it's not like he was facing Boston or Tampa.

Murray is the 3rd best option on this roster in the goalie position, only slightly better than Kallgren, when I say slightly we are talking hundredths of a percentage point better.

For what Murray makes and what is expected of him as a starter, his stats should not be that close to two AHLer's. Unfortunately in some categories he is our 3rd or 4th best option. He's is not a good goalie, even his coach said as much a couple of weeks ago.

Name	Games Played	Goals Against	Expected Goals Against	Goals Saved Above Expected	Goals Saved Above Expected Per 60	Save % on Unblocked Shots	xSave % on Unblocked Shots	Save % Above Expected	Save % on Shots On Goal	GAA	xGAA	GAA Better Than Expected	Wins Above Replacement	Icetime (Minutes)	Rebounds Per Save	xRebounds Per Save
Ilya Samsonov	39	92	107.48	15.5	0.406	0.956	0.949	0.007	0.915	2.41	2.82	0.41	2.58	2290	0.055	0.04
Joseph Woll	4	8	10.64	2.6	0.66	0.964	0.953	0.012	0.934	2.03	2.7	0.67	0.44	236	0.055	0.039
Matt Murray	26	74	74.95	1	0.041	0.949	0.948	0.001	0.903	3.01	3.05	0.04	0.16	1473	0.053	0.04
Erik Kallgren	10	25	24.43	-0.6	-0.064	0.947	0.948	-0.001	0.898	2.67	2.61	-0.06	-0.1	561	0.065	0.041

 

[Gary Nylund]

Awesome you think he was our best player in some of those games eh? So he's played well enough recently to be your pick for starter in game 1 in the playoffs?

That's not what we were discussing. If you're going to shift the goalposts to the point where we might as well be on a different playing field entirely, you're just wasting my time.

 

[Zybalto]

He had one game where his SV% was pretty high, keep it in context it was against the 19th best scoring team in the league, it's not like he was facing Boston or Tampa.

Murray is the 3rd best option on this roster in the goalie position, only slightly better than Kallgren, when I say slightly we are talking hundredths of a percentage point better.

For what Murray makes and what is expected of him as a starter, his stats should not be that close to two AHLer's. Unfortunately in some categories he is our 3rd or 4th best option. He's is not a good goalie, even his coach said as much a couple of weeks ago.

Name	Games Played	Goals Against	Expected Goals Against	Goals Saved Above Expected	Goals Saved Above Expected Per 60	Save % on Unblocked Shots	xSave % on Unblocked Shots	Save % Above Expected	Save % on Shots On Goal	GAA	xGAA	GAA Better Than Expected	Wins Above Replacement	Icetime (Minutes)	Rebounds Per Save	xRebounds Per Save
Ilya Samsonov	39	92	107.48	15.5	0.406	0.956	0.949	0.007	0.915	2.41	2.82	0.41	2.58	2290	0.055	0.04
Joseph Woll	4	8	10.64	2.6	0.66	0.964	0.953	0.012	0.934	2.03	2.7	0.67	0.44	236	0.055	0.039
Matt Murray	26	74	74.95	1	0.041	0.949	0.948	0.001	0.903	3.01	3.05	0.04	0.16	1473	0.053	0.04
Erik Kallgren	10	25	24.43	-0.6	-0.064	0.947	0.948	-0.001	0.898	2.67	2.61	-0.06	-0.1	561	0.065	0.041

In his last 4 games he had a .923 in the 52 shot game and then a .943 in a win against Florida.

It's indicative of a season where he has been super hot or super cold/injured or not.

He's still been an overall plus on the year (no Leafs goalie was that last season) and the emergence of Woll for next season has left us with the option to part with him next season (no, it wont cost us anything) or maybe he surprises us and goes on a run in the playoffs for us somehow and we want to keep him. (I think we part ways and money will go to Samsonov with Woll as the backup for next year giving us a cap savings overall and probable top 10 goaltending again)

 

[Gary Nylund]

In his last 4 games he had a .923 in the 52 shot game and then a .943 in a win against Florida.

It's indicative of a season where he has been super hot or super cold/injured or not.

He's still been an overall plus on the year (no Leafs goalie was that last season) and the emergence of Woll for next season has left us with the option to part with him next season (no, it wont cost us anything) or maybe he surprises us and goes on a run in the playoffs for us somehow and we want to keep him. (I think we part ways and money will go to Samsonov with Woll as the backup for next year giving us a cap savings overall and probable top 10 goaltending again)

I think you might be wrong about this one. I mean it won't take a 1st to get rid of him like some are saying, that's just nutso but considering how he's played this season and his cap hit, not sure any teams would be excited at the prospect of adding one year of Murray to their asset pool either.

re. the first bolded .Campbell had a SV% of .914 for us last season, how do you figure Murray has been an overall plus for us and Campbell wasn't? I suggest you look up Murray's SV% this season before you further down this rabbit hole.

 

[saltming]

I think you might be wrong about this one. I mean it won't take a 1st to get rid of him like some idiots are saying, that's just nutso but considering how he's played this season and his cap hit, not sure any teams would be excited at the prospect of adding one year of Murray to their asset pool either.

At this rate ltir seems very probable

 

[Gary Nylund]

At this rate ltir seems very probable

Yeah that's another possibility I guess, I wouldn't say it's probable though. He's still young, he still probably wants to play so unless that conk on the head did serious damage I think he'll almost certainly play again.

I really feel bad for the guy, I thought he'd played pretty well lately, there was still hope he could help us at some point in the playoffs and gets downed by such a fluky play last night, so sick.

 

[Hellcat]

In his last 4 games he had a .923 in the 52 shot game and then a .943 in a win against Florida.

It's indicative of a season where he has been super hot or super cold/injured or not.

He's still been an overall plus on the year (no Leafs goalie was that last season) and the emergence of Woll for next season has left us with the option to part with him next season (no, it wont cost us anything) or maybe he surprises us and goes on a run in the playoffs for us somehow and we want to keep him. (I think we part ways and money will go to Samsonov with Woll as the backup for next year giving us a cap savings overall and probable top 10 goaltending again)

What did Paul Maurice say about that Fla game? "The Leafs were a team playing with their lunch", there really was no threat or pressure on Murray at all. He had two outstanding games vs two borderline playoff-ish teams, shouldnt that be the expectation of any #1 goalie?

For a #1 goalie has ne met your expectations? Is he your starter in game one?

I sure hope Murray's contract can be moved. I suppose if you can move Mrzak's contract anyone can be moved.

 

[Hellcat]

That's not what we were discussing. If you're going to shift the goalposts to the point where we might as well be on a different playing field entirely, you're just wasting my time.

Framing Murray's competence, in a different way, is not moving the goal posts, it's illustrating THE point from a different angle / perspective. You now see the fallacy of your argument, primarily because it's framed in a different more succent manner, it's no reason for you to leave and take your ball home.

1) Would you start Murray in game 1?
2) Is it an easy choice for you on who plays in game 1?

 

[Zybalto]

I think you might be wrong about this one. I mean it won't take a 1st to get rid of him like some are saying, that's just nutso but considering how he's played this season and his cap hit, not sure any teams would be excited at the prospect of adding one year of Murray to their asset pool either.

re. the first bolded .Campbell had a SV% of .914 for us last season, how do you figure Murray has been an overall plus for us and Campbell wasn't? I suggest you look up Murray's SV% this season before you further down this rabbit hole.

Campbell was super in demand and earned a 5x5 contract on a contender with worse underlying stats than Murray last season. It just means the team has crapped the bed in front of Murray many nights to go along with Murray's super inconsistant season and the D injuries early on + the experiments post deadline while Campbell was both protected by a stronger overall D season last year and certainly fit the Leafs better than the Oilers. The fact Murray actually has more positive underlying numbers than Campbell last season isn't a massive feather or nothing but with scoring way up and many goaltenders crumbling, why wouldn't another team take a one year gamble on him. Just look at Detroit from last night and the massive flop Husso has been for example. Maybe they go with Murray for a year instead of resigning Ned to another similar cap hit? There are a ton of other examples of teams that might try him out for various reasons. A good comparisan to him this season would probably be Freddy Andersen of all goalies.

I mean, he's had injuries and super lows but also one of the greatest games a goalie ever has had statistically (the insane shutout over Dallas) and a 52 shots gem just a couple of weeks ago. Other teams are watching this thinking they could make him more cosistant, believe me.

We can't even rule him out yet from going on a tear for us in the playoffs if called on either, he's had that gear for us already this season and has done it for the two cups.

 

[Zybalto]

What did Paul Maurice say about that Fla game? "The Leafs were a team playing with their lunch", there really was no threat or pressure on Murray at all. He had two outstanding games vs two borderline playoff-ish teams, shouldnt that be the expectation of any #1 goalie?

For a #1 goalie has ne met your expectations? Is he your starter in game one?

I sure hope Murray's contract can be moved. I suppose if you can move Mrzak's contract anyone can be moved.

The borderline playoff teams are the hardest games right now are they not? Feels like game 7 for those teams.

I also wouldn't be using Maurice as an "argument from authority" considering what ls happened under his watch. They outshot the Leafs like 35 -25 that night and Mirray was really good.

The net was always up for grabs here and Murray took it for a while but Samsonov has it now. I just hope Murray is OK as the depth everywhere for the playoffs would be ideal.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Framing Murray's competence, in a different way, is not moving the goal posts, it's illustrating THE point from a different angle / perspective. You now see the fallacy of your argument, primarily because it's framed in a different more succent manner, it's no reason for you to leave and take your ball home.

1) Would you start Murray in game 1?
2) Is it an easy choice for you on who plays in game 1?

You're lost in the woods, here's a refresher:

You said Murray is "a dumpster fire".

I said no he isn't, his numbers this year haven't been great, but they're still way better than "dumpster fire".

You then shifted the goalposts to "is he your starter in game one"?

There is a ton of ground between "game one starter" and "dumpster fire".

I hope that helps.

Campbell was super in demand and earned a 5x5 contract on a contender with worse underlying stats than Murray last season. It just means the team has crapped the bed in front of Murray many nights to go along with Murray's super inconsistant season and the D injuries early on + the experiments post deadline while Campbell was both protected by a stronger overall D season last year and certainly fit the Leafs better than the Oilers. The fact Murray actually has more positive underlying numbers than Campbell last season isn't a massive feather or nothing but with scoring way up and many goaltenders crumbling, why wouldn't another team take a one year gamble on him. Just look at Detroit from last night and the massive flop Husso has been for example. Maybe they go with Murray for a year instead of resigning Ned to another similar cap hit? There are a ton of other examples of teams that might try him out for various reasons. A good comparisan to him this season would probably be Freddy Andersen of all goalies.

I mean, he's had injuries and super lows but also one of the greatest games a goalie ever has had statistically (the insane shutout over Dallas) and a 52 shots gem just a couple of weeks ago. Other teams are watching this thinking they could make him more cosistant, believe me.

We can't even rule him out yet from going on a tear for us in the playoffs if called on either, he's had that gear for us already this season and has done it for the two cups.

That's interesting, what are these numbers you're referring to?

I hope you're right about other teams wanting Murray, we'll see. I'm not saying nobody would want him, I'm just saying probably not many teams would be interested and if the Leafs want to dump him, they're not in a strong negotiating position. So I think it's more likely that the Leafs have to add a sweetener to move on from him as opposed to getting something back.

You said "There are a ton of other examples of teams that might try him out for various reasons". I think "a ton" is overstating thigs a fair bit, who are these teams? I realize he's had a few good games, but the big picture doesn't inspire confidence. And his cap hit is still 4 million right? That's a lot of cap space to use to "try him out" to use your words.

 

[Hellcat]

You're lost in the woods, here's a refresher:

You said Murray is "a dumpster fire".

I said no he isn't, his numbers this year haven't been great, but they're still way better than "dumpster fire".

You then shifted the goalposts to "is he your starter in game one"?

There is a ton of ground between "game one starter" and "dumpster fire".

I hope that helps.

I love the woods, I spend a lot of time there, nothing like camping out under the stars with nothing but a sleeping bag and a campfire.

Why are you avoiding answering two simple questions?

1) Who do you start in Game 1?
2) Was it a hard decision for you?

 

[Hellcat]

The borderline playoff teams are the hardest games right now are they not? Feels like game 7 for those teams.

I also wouldn't be using Maurice as an "argument from authority" considering what ls happened under his watch. They outshot the Leafs like 35 -25 that night and Mirray was really good.

The net was always up for grabs here and Murray took it for a while but Samsonov has it now. I just hope Murray is OK as the depth everywhere for the playoffs would be ideal.

They are borderline playoffs for a reason. You asked if borderline playoff teams are the hardest to play vs then in the next sentence you disparage Maurice, who is a coach of an underperforming borderline playoff team?

Yeah nasty looking spill for Murray, hope he is OK too. After all two very good back ups makes me a less uncomfortable than one over achiever and one crappy back up.

 

[saltming]

Yeah that's another possibility I guess, I wouldn't say it's probable though. He's still young, he still probably wants to play so unless that conk on the head did serious damage I think he'll almost certainly play again.

I really feel bad for the guy, I thought he'd played pretty well lately, there was still hope he could help us at some point in the playoffs and gets downed by such a fluky play last night, so sick.

I was routing for him too and tbh thought the odds of him rebounding were slightly better than samsonov breaking out this year, I figured it would have taken him the whole season to adjust his game, but thankfully I'm wrong.
It seems that goalie have an expiry date, and injuries are a big factor in that. Maybe he's just past due?
On that note I'm hoping vasy is passing that date now, like today now, or at least game one of the series now hahaha

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I think we all can agree that Hellcat could use a little fresh air.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I love the woods, I spend a lot of time there, nothing like camping out under the stars with nothing but a sleeping bag and a campfire.

Why are you avoiding answering two simple questions?

1) Who do you start in Game 1?
2) Was it a hard decision for you?

Perhaps you're not familiar with the expression "shifting the goalposts". I'll try to help - when you go from "Murray's a dumpster fire" to "who do you start in game 1", that's a textbook example of shifting the goalposts.

Have you changed your position on Murray being a "dumpster fire"? I only ask because if that's still your position, then my position is that further discussion with you is a waste of time.

I was routing for him too and tbh thought the odds of him rebounding were slightly better than samsonov breaking out this year, I figured it would have taken him the whole season to adjust his game, but thankfully I'm wrong.
It seems that goalie have an expiry date, and injuries are a big factor in that. Maybe he's just past due?
On that note I'm hoping vasy is passing that date now, like today now, or at least game one of the series now hahaha

Yeah maybe Marray's just past due, who the hell knows. Goalies are voodoo is such a true statement, I mean going into the playoffs, who can really be confident that they will get grade A goaltending? TB I assume has the highest level of confidence but after that, who? Ullmark maybe but even him, he's only played in 2 playoff games in his career (and didn't play well) so even he's not quite money in the bank.

Would be interesting to predict which goalies will have the best SV% in the playoffs. List say the top 5, among those with at least 10 starts. And to whoever wants to give this a shot, good luck to you!

I think we all can agree that Hellcat could use a little fresh air.

 

[saltming]

Perhaps you're not familiar with the expression "shifting the goalposts". I'll try to help - when you go from "Murray's a dumpster fire" to "who do you start in game 1", that's a textbook example of shifting the goalposts.

Have you changed your position on Murray being a "dumpster fire"? I only ask because if that's still your position, then my position is that further discussion with you is a waste of time.


Yeah maybe Marray's just past due, who the hell knows. Goalies are voodoo is such a true statement, I mean going into the playoffs, who can really be confident that they will get grade A goaltending? TB I assume has the highest level of confidence but after that, who? Ullmark maybe but even him, he's only played in 2 playoff games in his career (and didn't play well) so even he's not quite money in the bank.

Would be interesting to predict which goalies will have the best SV% in the playoffs. List say the top 5, among those with at least 10 starts. And to whoever wants to give this a shot, good luck to you!

Exactly! Playoffs are just different. A Vezina caliber season could lead to a sieve of a playoffs.
My hope is that Sammy rides the high of new team, great season and becoming a dad and maintains his play.
If Murray were to spring back to playoff form that would also be a miracle, but I hope it doesn't come to that because in my scenario that would mean Sammy flopped and cost us a game or two.
Ullmark is a good question mark he is playing behind a stingy defensive team and I can't see that stopping in the playoffs where 1 clutching and grabbing are not called as strictly and 2 Boston getting Boston non-calls.
So top 5 for sv% with 10 games played... That's crazy because after the first 7 games max 4 of the top 10 goalies, sv%wise, in the league will be gone