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Post-Game Talk: Leafs win 6-3 against the Sabres

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Gary Nylund

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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ACC1224 said:
They need to tidy some things up though. They seem to give up as much as they get.
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What would you say if I told you that McMann, Domi and Robertson all have better +- ratings than Matthews, Marner and Nylander. I know, so weird right? Marner leads the team in points and you keep raving about what a defensive force he is, you'd think he be way ahead in that category, but no.
 
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Smif

Smif

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Jan 23, 2008
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Gary Nylund said:
What would you say if I told you that McMann, Domi and Robertson all have better +- ratings than Matthews, Marner and Nylander. I know, so weird right? Marner leads the team in points and you keep raving about what a defensive force he is, you'd think he be way ahead in that category, but no.
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He was +7 before Matthews came back.
 
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Gary Nylund

Gary Nylund

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Smif said:
He was +7 before Matthews came back.
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Wow, that's pretty amazing. Just goes to show that +- is a bad way of measuring individual performance, I just thought it was interesting how good those numbers are for the 3rd line. It's still weird though, it's not like Matthews has been that bad but whatever.

Hope we show up tonight, I'm still not over how badly we were embarrassed in our first game in Long Island with JT on our team. I haven't been keeping track so not sure how many playoff series NYI have won since then but it's obviously possible that by the time this core is done, they still won't have caught up to NYI in that category which is is again, embarrassing.
 
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Leafsfan74

Leafsfan74

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Gary Nylund said:
Wow, that's pretty amazing. Just goes to show that +- is a bad way of measuring individual performance, I just thought it was interesting how good those numbers are for the 3rd line. It's still weird though, it's not like Matthews has been that bad but whatever.

Hope we show up tonight, I'm still not over how badly we were embarrassed in our first game in Long Island with JT on our team. I haven't been keeping track so not sure how many playoff series NYI have won since then but it's obviously possible that by the time this core is done, they still won't have caught up to NYI in that category which is is again, embarrassing.
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I don't think +/- is a poor metric for individual performance. In fact, I think it is underestimated by some statistic geeks.

What is critical to incorporate into this stat is the underlying details of the players on the ice, "zone starts, matchups (this is the biggest determinant in my opinion, First Line vs First Line etc), game situations, if one is on the PK (as a shorthanded goal is a nice bonus +1)".

I still view +/- as an important stat and it should be a source of pride for a player. If I am a sniper but I have to deal with the opposing teams sniper, it requires effort and thought. I believe that forwards with a high hockey IQ make the best two way players and thus, strong +/-. This year, none of the Leaf forwards have impressed me with their two way play but in the past, it's been Matthews who was dominant, Marner strong in many games.

When it comes to D-Men, I believe the defensemen who are most willing to sacrifice and are difficult to play against, make the best for shut down purposes and thus, strong +/-.

It's also no surprise to anyone watching this team as to why Tanev has the best + on the team. He puts a great deal of pride in doing whatever it takes to win, blocking shots, positioning, playing through difficult match ups etc. You win Cups with these types. Something fans here haven't appreciated. Maybe now some do. His presence in this lineup is critical, along with McCabe,
 
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Gary Nylund

Gary Nylund

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Leafsfan74 said:
I don't think +/- is a poor metric for individual performance. In fact, I think it is underestimated by some statistic geeks.

What is critical to incorporate into this stat is the underlying details of the players on the ice, "zone starts, matchups (this is the biggest determinant in my opinion, First Line vs First Line etc), game situations, if one is on the PK (as a shorthanded goal is a nice bonus +1)".

I still view +/- as an important stat and it should be a source of pride for a player. If I am a sniper but I have to deal with the opposing teams sniper, it requires effort and thought. I believe that forwards with a high hockey IQ make the best two way players and thus, strong +/-. This year, none of the Leaf forwards have impressed me with their two way play but in the past, it's been Matthews who was dominant, Marner strong in many games.

When it comes to D-Men, I believe the defensemen who are most willing to sacrifice and are difficult to play against, make the best for shut down purposes and thus, strong +/-.

It's also no surprise to anyone watching this team as to why Tanev has the best + on the team. He puts a great deal of pride in doing whatever it takes to win, blocking shots, positioning, playing through difficult match ups etc. You win Cups with these types. Something fans here haven't appreciated. Maybe now some do. His presence in this lineup is critical, along with McCabe,
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I'm still not impressed with +- as a stat but I agree completely about Tanev. Hard to overstate how important he is to this team.
 
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rumman

rumman

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Nice to see Domi and Robertson shedding their respective goal scoring slumos, but lets be honest this was a turkey shoot, how long before Ruff is turfed?
 
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TakeTheBody

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Jan 10, 2018
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FrozenJagrt said:
Remind me how guys like McMann and Robertson joined the Leafs
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Remind me of the failures of the third and fourth line during his time here? Dubas drafted pretty well. Hell he had to, he gave away all the number ones. Traded decently too. I'm not a complete hater. It seemed his mindset was teams would be so awed by the core four in the first two lines he didn't need any other forwards. In hindsight he wasn't great here. And the way he left was even worse. He is not missed.
 
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Leafsfan74

Leafsfan74

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Gary Nylund said:
I'm still not impressed with +- as a stat but I agree completely about Tanev. Hard to overstate how important he is to this team.
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I've shared this story multiple times but it's worth repeating.

When the Leafs traded Clark for Mats Sundin at the Draft Table, it was a shocker to many. However, I understood the reasoning. Clark had a hell of a season, but he was having injury issues over the last years. The toll of playing his much beloved heavy game. Clark was the heart and soul of the team but unlike the current management team, the owners knew they needed to roll the dice to get over the hump and Clark, after a 46 goal season in 64 games was at the height of his value.

We would miss Clarks passion but his offense would be replaced by a younger, budding star in Sundin. What made me more concerned about this trade though, was the trade of Lefebvre in the deal. This guy was the quiet, stay at home D Man, who like Macoun and Rouse, allowed the Leafs to get to back to back final fours basically with only one offensive line and three checking lines.

He didn't get much fanfare while here or when traded, however, I watched the game in a strategic manner, I watched the way that Burns deployed him. When he needed to secure a 1 goal lead or other teams top players were on, Lefebvre seemed to jump over the boards.

I look back at his stats years later, something I didn't do as a kid outside of looking at the back of hockey cards for the all-star fowards goals and points. My instincts were correct though, the "eye test" as it commonly referred today.

He won his Cup in Colorado and the Leafs missed his strong, Defense-First approach (he had an excellent +33 the year he was traded). The team lost in the First Round the next year.

The red-headed step child of stats, the +/-. It doesn't get any respect! :)
 
LeafSteel

LeafSteel

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Leafsfan74 said:
I've shared this story multiple times but it's worth repeating.

When the Leafs traded Clark for Mats Sundin at the Draft Table, it was a shocker to many. However, I understood the reasoning. Clark had a hell of a season, but he was having injury issues over the last years. The toll of playing his much beloved heavy game. Clark was the heart and soul of the team but unlike the current management team, the owners knew they needed to roll the dice to get over the hump and Clark, after a 46 goal season in 64 games was at the height of his value.

We would miss Clarks passion but his offense would be replaced by a younger, budding star in Sundin. What made me more concerned about this trade though, was the trade of Lefebvre in the deal. This guy was the quiet, stay at home D Man, who like Macoun and Rouse, allowed the Leafs to get to back to back final fours basically with only one offensive line and three checking lines.

He didn't get much fanfare while here or when traded, however, I watched the game in a strategic manner, I watched the way that Burns deployed him. When he needed to secure a 1 goal lead or other teams top players were on, Lefebvre seemed to jump over the boards.

I look back at his stats years later, something I didn't do as a kid outside of looking at the back of hockey cards for the all-star fowards goals and points. My instincts were correct though, the "eye test" as it commonly referred today.

He won his Cup in Colorado and the Leafs missed his strong, Defense-First approach (he had an excellent +33 the year he was traded). The team lost in the First Round the next year.

The red-headed step child of stats, the +/-. It doesn't get any respect! :)
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Lefebvre always passed the eye test for me.

Solid all around defender and could throw shockingly well, and he wasn’t afraid to.
 
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FrozenJagrt

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Dec 16, 2009
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TakeTheBody said:
Remind me of the failures of the third and fourth line during his time here? Dubas drafted pretty well. Hell he had to, he gave away all the number ones. Traded decently too. I'm not a complete hater. It seemed his mindset was teams would be so awed by the core four in the first two lines he didn't need any other forwards. In hindsight he wasn't great here. And the way he left was even worse. He is not missed.
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I mean you brought him up to take a shot at the failings of his depth scoring compared to now when some of those current depth scorers are guys he brought in. Are you high?
 
Gary Nylund

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
31,359
24,862
Leafsfan74 said:
I've shared this story multiple times but it's worth repeating.

When the Leafs traded Clark for Mats Sundin at the Draft Table, it was a shocker to many. However, I understood the reasoning. Clark had a hell of a season, but he was having injury issues over the last years. The toll of playing his much beloved heavy game. Clark was the heart and soul of the team but unlike the current management team, the owners knew they needed to roll the dice to get over the hump and Clark, after a 46 goal season in 64 games was at the height of his value.

We would miss Clarks passion but his offense would be replaced by a younger, budding star in Sundin. What made me more concerned about this trade though, was the trade of Lefebvre in the deal. This guy was the quiet, stay at home D Man, who like Macoun and Rouse, allowed the Leafs to get to back to back final fours basically with only one offensive line and three checking lines.

He didn't get much fanfare while here or when traded, however, I watched the game in a strategic manner, I watched the way that Burns deployed him. When he needed to secure a 1 goal lead or other teams top players were on, Lefebvre seemed to jump over the boards.

I look back at his stats years later, something I didn't do as a kid outside of looking at the back of hockey cards for the all-star fowards goals and points. My instincts were correct though, the "eye test" as it commonly referred today.

He won his Cup in Colorado and the Leafs missed his strong, Defense-First approach (he had an excellent +33 the year he was traded). The team lost in the First Round the next year.

The red-headed step child of stats, the +/-. It doesn't get any respect! :)
Click to expand...
Lefebvre was great and I remember his +- was great, but it went way up and down over the years so still not much of an argument for the stat IMHO.

We had a really good D back then. 5 really good Dmen, all different but all really good, kind of like having 5 really good #3 guys. What I remember most about that trade was Cherry ranting - "they can't get over the hump, without Clark there's gonna be no hump to get over" (paraphrasing). He was right about that but the hump wasn't going to be there anyway but it was still a great trade. And I remember when the trade was made, you're right, there wasn't much fanfare when he got traded but I remember thinking that he was almost as valuable as Clark. Had to go though, gotta give to get as the saying goes and Sundin was obviously a great player.
 
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