Was hoping OEL would solve the PPs consistancy issues but it feels just as jekyll and hyde as ever.
Post-Game Talk: Leafs win 4-3 (SO)
- Thread starter Seath The Scaleless
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Gary Nylund
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It's useful for measuring team performance, for measuring individual performance it's useless.
Yes the PP sucks. The stars play on the PP, not the depth guys. My point stands - there's plenty of blame to go around but JT, Marner and Matthews deserve more blame than anyone else.
Our TB got studs in Kuch, Point, and Hedman and all we have are AM, MM and Reilly.
They are equal in terms of everything, right.
The thing is that, I respect you as a poster and all but you really use stats to favor you to prove your point. Like I said to you before if you are going to use Paul, Coleman and Goodrow for great value contracts bc that’s what they were, they you have to also point out that AM, MM and JT are over valued contracts that Leafs were not getting any good values in the playoffs.
As long as you failed to acknowledge that, you are really speaking to yourself and explaining to yourself.
thusk
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again its not about defensive play he missed or did well by exemple colorado 1st goal was a result of nylander missed a play, i didn't talked about those kind of play. it's about stop playing/ stop working
Exavtly when you're playing NHL in console and your controller turn off, that's what i have difficulty to accept... Not the fact he missed a play but hes completly stop playing after 10 second on the ice.
I don't think he was so tired after been 10 sec on the ice after tv timeout to justify anything.
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Gary Nylund
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Nylander's hard to figure out sometimes but as long as he's the only one of our star players who keeps up his production in the playoffs, I really don't care.
I want this team to win as much as anyone else and, yes, I think the Leafs stars should get blame for the PP considering they are the ones on it. Is the statement "The Leafs have had the worst performing depth players and the weakest starting goaltending of any contender" a true statement?
I mean, you can find good reasons to still like Nylander, Marner and Matthews enough to say you want to keep them on. Nylander may have his defensive issues but he's actually been able to get key goals for the Leafs. Matthews has had his injury issues but has been a 5v5 force just like a showed with the goal scoring chart. Marner has been one of the best defensive wingers in the league while leading the team in points the last 3 years. All 3 have been part of that PP though and cant get that big goal to cement home a series. That was actually Tavares who also had that big drive to setup the goal to force the game 7 last time out.
Can you think of a single good thing anyone in the bottom 6 has done?
Kuch, Point and Hedman havnt done much of anything the last 2 years either and wouldnt have done squat with this support in their careers too.
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I don't think you really believe that. You're just choosing not to. The stat is great but its useless to look at who are the best parts of the stat? who is doing best in their role? The game is about scoring and not being scored on. If your team is up 30 goals on differential and the whole team is even except one player who is a +30, you dont think that guy is any more special than someone else? That its useless to even give it any attention?
Marner lead once in the last 3 years not including this year since it’s not finished
Definitely a fair point but when you take into account who players are playing with an what positions they’re being put it there’s pluses and minuses to those plus minuses
Gary Nylund
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The stat sucks. It's based on plus minus which is considered to be a garbage stat by pretty much everyone.
Plus minus is also useful for measuring team performance, but when it comes to measuring individuals, it's useless. But if you still think it's a good way of measuring individual performance then you have fun, just don't expect me to pay any attention whatsoever to your numbers.
GoonieFace
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I’m not referencing that play in particular, just the idea that Nylander is lazy. Perception for each individual is different
Really? Cause the broadcast seemed to think it was knies lazy line change that caused the goal but maybe you got a better look at it
Gary Nylund
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You remember Mark Fraser? One season there were only 2 players on the Leafs who were better than +8. One was Kadri, one of our best players but the other guy who led the team with +18 was Mark Fraser.
Fraser was a 26 year old Dman entering his prime years. +18 means he's a valuable asset and part of the core going forward right? Wrong. He was actually well below average and a couple of years and a couple of teams later, he was out of the NHL.
Nice +- numbers that one season though. Good thing you weren't our GM, you might have locked this +- stud up long term.
You misunderstood what I was saying there. Probably my fault.
I think there are differences between 5v5 goal differential and plus minus and team goal differential but you are the one basically saying "plus-minus" is great on a macro level but not on a micro. I just dont understand liking one without the other is all. One cant be so useful and one useless. I can understand the context needed for the micro level too. Usage, QoC, QoT, everything. If a team is a +50 for goal differential, wouldnt you like to know if a great PP is the reason? or is a dominant player is driving it? I just dont get it.
thusk
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Like been a ghost for 30 be down 3-0 ans started to play there and finishing with1-2 goal in a 7-3 lost?
Or been completly invisible/trash all game long and see him teammate/goalie doing everything they could to keep the game at only one goal difference and find a way to score on last 2 minute with goalie pulled...
or start played down 4-1, starting to play down by 3 nd finishing the gme with 3 pts
next game ironically get maybe one of his best game of series and get 0 pts... Next game be completly invisible all game long, left his player in the slot for no reason and that's the only time we saw him for the entire game...
I just described here the only series won by leafs in 20 years..
Whatever what the stats saying, you will not win a lot of game when you started working late trailing by 2-3 goal everytime or late like by 2 game in a serie. When you're just focusing on stats and not in wich kind of impact the player had to the game, that's say absolutly nothing.
stats, stats, stats... its the only thing important for you...
Imagine a complete team playing that way
You remember Mark Fraser? One season there were only 2 players on the Leafs who were better than +8. One was Kadri, one of our best players but the other guy who led the team with +18 was Mark Fraser.
Fraser was a 26 year old Dman entering his prime years. +18 means he's a valuable asset and part of the core going forward right? Wrong. He was actually well below average and a couple of years and a couple of teams later, he was out of the NHL.
Nice +- numbers that one season though. Good thing you weren't our GM, you might have locked this +- stud up long term.
From 2012-2013 Fraser was a bottom pairing D with soft usage. +/- can get blurred as it applies to EN situations, 3v3, 4v4, etc. too. He showed what he was by the next season when they tried to step him up and they cut loose.
5v5 GF% strictly applies to goes scored for and against 5v5 with you on the ice. Why use +/- when you can use something far better and more useful right? ...and its not a fancy stat, just straight outcomes with a player on the ice 5v5.
PROUD PAPA
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Nothing they've shown this season led me to believe they're different. Sure some new names are there but the overall picture looks identical to past years. Waste.
Gary Nylund
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If by micro level you mean players then yes, I don't find them reliable. If they're so reliable, how do you explain Mark Fraser?
PP being a factor in goal differential has nothing to do with individual player stats. Just look at the PP% of the team and see where that ranks compared to other teams, simple. And no, these "micro stats" aren't going to tell you who's good and/or bad on the PP.
Completely invisible ... trash ... yeah OK, sure thing bro.
Just maybe getting matthews mcmann and nylander for the full playoffs as opposed to a couple games as well as a more stable blue line and better goalies in net is what we’re hanging our hat on
I'm sure the Panthers would have done just fine Barkov, Tkachuk and Bennet went down and their starting goalie got pulled. Everyone would have laughed at them calling them chokers and said that injuries are just an excuse right. So Leafy to happen to us.
Well Paul, Goodrow and Coleman had done nothing too the past two playoffs too.
I am not saying our depth players are great. They sucks. But at the same time, I understand that if our top players continue to choke like they had, it doesn’t matter if we have the best depth in the league or the best goaltending in the league.
The issue have always been our top players didn’t play like top players in the series.
Can you name a Cup winner that their top players didn’t play like top players.
The simple fact is that nobody is saying our depth are amazing but simply stating the fact that our top players had been crap just like our depth players. Unless you think that’s wrong.
Lastly, Leafs were never contenders, as I had never seen any teams claiming to be contenders when they only won ONE round in the playoffs over the past 8 seasons with the same core.
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crump
~ ~ (ړײ) ~ ~
Fell asleep woke up just in time for the shootout. I’ll take the win. Didn’t like letting them back in the game though. New guys need some serious practice time with new mates.
Gary Nylund
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Blurred. LOL yeah that's putting it mildly.
+- isn't a fancy stat either, it's still useless though. This GF% is based on +-, that's why it's useless. Usage, other players on the ice, goalies, many, many other factors that "blur" the numbers to the point where they're not much use. The bottom line is that the stat is simply not a reliable way of measuring individual performanced. That's JMHO of course, someone years ago made a great post that explained it all in much greater detail, I read it, agreed with it, and haven't paid attention to those number since. I wish I would have saved that somewhere so I could share it with you, you might find it interesting but whatever.
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Inferior? Closer to equal with a lot of flaws on both teams in the 10-20 range
Gary Nylund
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We've had some bad luck over the years with this core, that's fair. Not enough to justify a 1-8 record in playoff series though. This team underperforms their potential to extent that you could say it's what they're known for, it's their specialty, their brand.
