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Leafs to give Engvall qualifying offer, unsure on Kase

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-DeMo- said:
the only reason not to qualify someone imo is if there would be no trade market for said player. even if you don't want the player if other teams would then you still qualify them and move them for picks/prospects
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Or qo is worth more then what he’s worth and he will sign it.
 
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He's a good 3rd liner with height and we don't much talent on the 3rd line. This team has a good top 6 and a bunch of 4th liners. Not much quality on the 3rd line.
 
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justashadowof said:
Not that I'm lobbying for a return to this but Engvall is exactly the type of big guy some average sized tough guy like Wendel Clark or Gary Roberts would randomly grab and pound effectively chasing the guy out of the league. Now this guy is getting treated like a vital cog when players like Johnsson, Kapanen, Brown, etc. weren't treated that way.
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Johnsson, Kapanen and Brown all got qualified. How is Engvall treated any different?
 
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-DeMo- said:
the only reason not to qualify someone imo is if there would be no trade market for said player. even if you don't want the player if other teams would then you still qualify them and move them for picks/prospects
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They could not qualify him and sign him at a lower cap as a UFA.
 
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-DeMo- said:
the only reason not to qualify someone imo is if there would be no trade market for said player. even if you don't want the player if other teams would then you still qualify them and move them for picks/prospects
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If qualified Kase could take the team to arbitration - which is something the team likely wouldn't want.
 
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-DeMo- said:
the only reason not to qualify someone imo is if there would be no trade market for said player. even if you don't want the player if other teams would then you still qualify them and move them for picks/prospects
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So let's say Kase gets $4 million. Who is going to trade for him? This would put the Leafs in a cap crunch, and they would end up having to pay to get rid of him.
 
I’m whatever about Kase, not sure he fits where we will slot him in the lineup. Had his moments, but really a meh option moving forward, with the added injury risk.
 
I'm currently seeing about $12.5M for 5 forwards, 1 more defenseman and 2 goalies when removing Kallgren, Clifford and Abruzzese from the cap friendly list.

Sandin <$2M aav
Engvall $2.5M aav
Blackwell $800K aav
<Some other forward> $750K aav
<A second other forward> $750K aav
Joey Anderson $750K aav

That's about $5M for 2 goalies without moving another contract.
 
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13pacheco31 said:
Than you let him walk, they don't have to sign him
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I don't think a team can walk away from an arbitration award under $4,5M under any circumstances, it's binding.

Even if they could walk away, it would be wasted time where the team could have sourced a replacement on the free agent market.
 
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Kase put in great effort for us....but he's not physical and he's injury prone....need to fill our spots like his with players with some sandpaper. I'm fine with keeping Engvall as long as the price point is reasonable. Big body (that he needs to use more...a lot more) that is a bit part of our PK, skates like the wind, can continue to grow on PP2, and can pinch hit at Center in the case of an injury. If himself and Kampf are the makings of line 3 again...that RW spot needs to go to a guy with some bite to his game. Engvall almost needs linemates that're going to bring him into scrums after the whistle. He's at his best after a few face washes
 
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justashadowof said:
Jordan Greenway: $3M aav,
Nick Paul: $3.15M aav, 80gms, 16g 16a
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Greenway and Paul bring a lot more than numbers though, especially Paul. Engvall isn’t near the player of Paul nor does he have as many tools as Greenway. I’d take either of them over him.

The leafs need some grit and physicality, not a soft perimeter player who disappears for long stretches of the season.
 
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Burkeocet said:
Greenway and Paul bring a lot more than numbers though, especially Paul. Engvall isn’t near the player of Paul nor does he have as many tools as Greenway. I’d take either of them over him.

The leafs need some grit and physicality, not a soft perimeter player who disappears for long stretches of the season.
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I don't disagree at all about Engvall compared to those players but that isn't exactly how an arbitration case for a player is argued:

beyondplaybook.com

HOW SALARY ARBITRATION WORKS IN THE NHL - Beyond the Playbook

NHL salary arbitration process in the National Hockey League (NHL) has become a key tool in the negotiation process between clubs and players.
beyondplaybook.com beyondplaybook.com
Pursuant to the CBA, the parties are allowed to present “whatever witnesses, affidavits, documents, and other relevant evidence they may choose to present at the hearing.”17 Further, the parties may present evidence on the following:


  1. The overall performance, including National Hockey League official statistics (both offensive and defensive), of the player in the previous season or seasons; (For more information on the official statistics take a look at Why Enhanced Statistics Are a Game Changer for NHL Contract Negotiations);18
  2. The number of games played by the player, his injuries or illnesses during the preceding seasons;
  3. The length of service of the player in the League and/or with the club;
  4. The overall contribution of the player to the competitive success or failure of his club in the preceding season;
  5. Any special qualities of leadership or public appeal not inconsistent with the fulfillment of his responsibilities as a playing member of his team;
  6. The overall performance in the previous season or seasons of any player(s) who is alleged to be comparable to the party player whose salary is in dispute; and
  7. The compensation of any player(s) who is alleged to be comparable to the party player, provided, however, that in applying this or any of the above subparagraphs, the Salary Arbitrator shall not consider a player(s) to be comparable to the party player unless a party to the salary arbitration has contended that the player(s) is comparable; nor shall the Salary Arbitrator consider the compensation or performance of a player(s) unless a party to the salary arbitration has contended that the player(s) is comparable.19
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Maple Leafs let Ondřej Kaše join UFA ranks: sources - NorthStar

TORONTO – Ondřej Kaše will become an unrestricted free agent after not being tendered a qualifying offer by the Toronto Maple Leafs ahead of Monday’s 5 p.m. deadline, according to sources.

The Leafs liked Kaše but had concerns about his potential reward in arbitration.

Had the team qualified the oft-injured, 26-year-old winger it’s believed he could have pushed for an award in the $3-million range. While the Leafs would have argued for a lower salary, they would have been stuck with the arbitrator’s decision as long as it was below $4.54-million.

That scenario proved too risky given their tight cap situation and other positional needs. It’s the second straight year Kaše was sent to the open market rather than getting a qualifying offer from his team.

....................

Even though he’ll become a free agent on Wednesday, the door isn’t completely closed on a return to Toronto, per sources. The sides discussed a contract extension and may revisit those talks depending on how things play out in the days ahead.

Kaše’s childhood friend, David Kampf, remains with the Leafs and he enjoyed his time with the organization. Plus the team will need to sign multiple forwards to fill out depth roles following the departures of Ilya Mikheyev (free agency) and Jason Spezza (retired).

In other moves Monday, the Leafs extended qualifying offers to forward Pierre Engvall and defenceman Rasmus Sandin, per sources, while minor-leaguers Joe Duszak, Kristians Rubins and Chad Krys were not qualified and will become unrestricted free agents.
 
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Ondrej Kase just isn’t that good.

It was extremely frustrating to hear Sheldon Keefe describe him as a “difference maker” before game 1 of the playoffs and then watch Kase float around for seven games collecting 3 assists.

He was not a difference maker at all for us and to be honest when I hear Keefe say stuff like that it really makes me question his judgement.

When you hear Kase described as a “difference maker” and then you watch guys like Nick Paul simply go out and burn us for 2 goals in a deciding game it really makes you wonder what they’re watching.
 
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A tad surprised to see that Rubins wasn't qualified. More importantly, we'll have to see how much Kase might value playing another season "alongside" Kampf.
 
justashadowof said:
Not that I'm lobbying for a return to this but Engvall is exactly the type of big guy some average sized tough guy like Wendel Clark or Gary Roberts would randomly grab and pound effectively chasing the guy out of the league. Now this guy is getting treated like a vital cog when players like Johnsson, Kapanen, Brown, etc. weren't treated that way.
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Engavalls qualifying offer is 1.25 mil though. The players you listed earned 3 mil plus. Big difference.

Leaf Army said:
Ondrej Kase just isn’t that good.

It was extremely frustrating to hear Sheldon Keefe describe him as a “difference maker” before game 1 of the playoffs and then watch Kase float around for seven games collecting 3 assists.

He was not a difference maker at all for us and to be honest when I hear Keefe say stuff like that it really makes me question his judgement.

When you hear Kase described as a “difference maker” and then you watch guys like Nick Paul simply go out and burn us for 2 goals in a deciding game it really makes you wonder what they’re watching.
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He was playing injured in the playoffs. When healthy last year he looked like a competent middle 6 forward. Was on a 45 pt pace last year. I say bring him back and when he inevitably gets injured you have more cap spae for the trade deadline
 
TopCheese said:
Engavalls qualifying offer is 1.25 mil though. The players you listed earned 3 mil plus. Big difference.


He was playing injured in the playoffs. When healthy last year he looked like a competent middle 6 forward. Was on a 45 pt pace last year. I say bring him back and when he inevitably gets injured you have more cap spae for the trade deadline
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Kase has 2 goals in 31 career playoff games. We need to set the bar higher than “competent”.

The guy just isn’t that good.
 
TopCheese said:
Engavalls qualifying offer is 1.25 mil though. The players you listed earned 3 mil plus. Big difference.
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How much do you think Kapanen's, Johnsson's and Brown's qualifying offers would have been before their $3.2/$3.4/$2.1M contracts?

All under $1M.
 
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