Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose to Stars, 4-1

[LaPlante94]

This doesn't sound ideal though, to be honest. Why do we want to get William Nylander playing hard dump and chase hockey? How is this going to work? You're paying 11.5 for a Lamborghini and trying to use it like a Ford F150

I disagree with the idea that they've been optimized their entire careers. I think people developed their opinion on Dubas' style from his first season and used it to shape his entire tenure in terms of roster construction

In terms of the Capitals comparison, I actually think it's pretty on point, except that we're in our Dale Hunter era where we are trying something that just doesn't make sense given the team we have. Remember when prime Ovechkin scored only 32 goals and 65 points because Hunter was trying to turn him into a grinder?

Core 4 criticism is understandable and more than reasonable. However, we're stuck with them and I don't think attempting to turn them into the type of players they aren't is a good idea

Dubas brought in many different kind of players for the bottom 6 over the years. He brought in skilled guys who couldn't help depth scoring. He brought in good defensive players who obviously didn't help much with depth scoring. At the end he finally decided to bring in more physicality who were still respectable defensively and they didn't help much scoring wise but they finally won a round in the playoffs. He also held on to useless depth guys like Kerfoot at 3.5 million who provided nothing all those years when any GM would've moved away from that long ago.

I don't see the connection between the Dale Hunter era and what Berube is doing here. Trotz would make more sense trying to get the team to be better defensively and play simple hockey to try and limit the dumb mistakes that has cost the team many times over the years. I don't think asking your top players to stop playing pond hockey and to play the game is limiting them at all. They're still producing pretty damn well and could be much better if they hit the net or shot it more at times instead of overpassing. Savard is the exact kind of coach who people think would help this core who is more forward thinking and all about skill. Look at the PP though.

They aren't being turned into players they aren't. That's why they got guys like Knies and a bigger guy who will forecheck and retrieve pucks for them. Almost every coach has a guy like this on a line. Early in the year they looked really good because they were doing just that and throwing everything at the goalie and retrieving the rebounds and keeping up the offensive zone forecheck and the team was very fun to watch. Now they go back to their old ways and either refuse to shoot it or can't hit the net or get pucks through and then they don't get the puck back.

 

[leafs in five]

Nope because your mortgage has value…….you live in the big beautiful house.
It’s like focusing on your phone bill while ignoring that $30,000 of fast food on your credit card at 20%

actually it's like spending twice as much as you need to on a phone plan with a provider that is worse than cheaper providers

 

[Dekes For Days]

You're the one who said "We should do the system that works best for us" so I was responding to that. Again for the third time, I'm asking, what system is that?

Saying we should be focused on possession and offense is almost meaningless. Last time I checked those cup winning teams were pretty good at both of those. They also employed a heavy forecheck and very physical game., something we lack right now which will hopefully change in time for the post-season.

You might want to read what last year's Stanley Cup champs had to say about the system they play, particularly the coach:

“It's a very aggressive game. So you're not giving ice…there's only really one piece of our game where we have patience. What we're trying to do is recreate the environment of the second and third period as often as we can. We don't want to slow down through the neutral zone, we don't regroup the puck and run a lot of routes in order to break something loose. It's really not that difficult to explain. If you watch a whole bunch of playoff hockey, we're trying to play that game, which is hard, which we would all agree. The playoffs are a very, very intense, very physical game, but I don't think you could play that for 82 (games). Just with travel alone, you don't have the energy level…but we're trying to. We're gonna ask them to do it. So it's very, very difficult to play that way, it's physically taxing to play that way. It's also, at times, not a lot of fun"

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/florida-panthers/features/what-makes-playing-paul-maurices-systems-so-difficult-several-panthers-players-explain

And yet they had one total win beyond the first round in all of his years as a coach. That isn't "one of the best teams", that's a sad failure.

Not really sure what you're looking for, because I've answered your question, and you just dismiss it. Notably, our system should be utilizing the carry ability of our forwards, instead of trying to neuter their offensive potential at times when it's not necessary.

You don't seem to have much understanding of our team, other teams, or the difference between system focus and team characteristic. That quote is a whole lot of saying nothing, and again, I don't care what Florida chooses to do. We are not Florida, and we should not be trying to be Florida. The cup winners you referenced are not all physical. They do not all rely on dump and chase with a heavy forecheck. Cup-winning teams come in all shapes and sizes, with different systems and characteristics.

We were one of the best teams in the league under Keefe. Pointing at a playoff series records without context doesn't change that. You do realise Berube has a losing record in the playoffs, right? In fact, through Keefe's tenure, Berube has a worse play-off record than him. Ironically, drifting too far away from our system was one of our issues in the playoffs, and one of the reasons I was okay with going a different coaching direction, but our new direction has just been worse in pretty much every way.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Emulate Calgary's work ethic

Work ethic isn't the issue.

The excuses just tells me these guys can’t be arsed to engage in a foot race or have to recover a puck.

We're actually an above average team at recovering dump ins, and that's not even a new development. But even the best puck recovery team recovers the puck on less than 30% of dump ins. The problem isn't that our players can't do it. The problem is that we're doing it too much, even at times when our team has better options, and it's hurting us.

 

[Canadian Finn]

hate it when we do too much.

stop it, would ya leafs.

onto the next game ...

 

[Racer88]

hate it when we do too much.

stop it, would ya leafs.

onto the next game ...

This is hilarious……..we do to much.lol

We need to start assigning numbers to the many excuses given for this team.
We lost tonight because we pulled a number 4 but then a number 6 happen o it’s not our fault because we are so freakin awesome ……bro

 

[notDatsyuk]

To determine that, that would require intelligence and balls. Something lacking at the cashbox. Plus, Matty's jersey is a best seller. Hell I have two.

The only Leafs jersey I have sports the name and autograph of a goalie who got his name on the Cup four times as a Leaf.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Willie is paid for his good looks. Maty for his goal scoring prowess and Mitch for his elite playmaking and Selke winning defense. Unfortunately they turn into pumpkins in late April.

Willy is second on the team in both goals and assists over the last 5 ½ seasons - more than just a pretty face.

And as far as I know Mitch hasn't won a Selke.

 

[leafs in five]

hate it when we do too much.

stop it, would ya leafs.

onto the next game ...

 

[ClarkSittler]

sigh.
The Leafs playing dump and chase hockey is like taking a thoroughbred racehorse and hitching him to a milk wagon.
I think it is fine to judge dump and chase. It gives up the puck and throws up the possibility that the team you are playing against will pick it up, get it out, and attack.
It is played by a team that doesn't have as much pure talent as the Leafs.
We have some of the best puck carriers in the league. Nylander is a zone entry god.
And we play dump and chase?
I was not a fan of Berube when he was hired.
He is worse then I feared.

Dump and chase hockey combined with a speed, a strong forecheck and aggressiveness wins Championships. The last 5 cup winners employed some of type of this system which made them successful.

A sad failure of management that couldn't get a good goaltender.
Our play so far this year has been mediocre, masked by spectacular goaltending.
With mediocre or bad goaltending, and a shitty system, you get last night.

I agree we haven't had a stellar goalie in quite some time, but when your cap is tied in up in 4-5 players it makes it difficult to acquire one. Even with a good goalie we still would've lost last year, our 10 million+ dollar stars and the rest of the team managed to score a whopping 12 goals in 7 games. That's an utterly pathetic playoff performance.

 

[ClarkSittler]

Not really sure what you're looking for, because I've answered your question, and you just dismiss it. Notably, our system should be utilizing the carry ability of our forwards, instead of trying to neuter their offensive potential at times when it's not necessary.

You don't seem to have much understanding of our team, other teams, or the difference between system focus and team characteristic. That quote is a whole lot of saying nothing, and again, I don't care what Florida chooses to do. We are not Florida, and we should not be trying to be Florida. The cup winners you referenced are not all physical. They do not all rely on dump and chase with a heavy forecheck. Cup-winning teams come in all shapes and sizes, with different systems and characteristics.

We were one of the best teams in the league under Keefe. Pointing at a playoff series records without context doesn't change that. You do realise Berube has a losing record in the playoffs, right? In fact, through Keefe's tenure, Berube has a worse play-off record than him. Ironically, drifting too far away from our system was one of our issues in the playoffs, and one of the reasons I was okay with going a different coaching direction, but our new direction has just been worse in pretty much every way.

But you haven't answered my question at all, you claim we should be using a system and when I keep asking what that is, you throw out vague terms like possession and offensive. That's probably because you haven't coached or played the game at a high level so you're unaware of the different systems used.

Cup winning teams have one thing in common, they're physical, hard working and fast. Something Leaf teams have lacked in the playoffs, hopefully Berube will be able to press this fact upon them.

As for the quote from Paul Maurice, I'd much rather take advice from a Stanley Cup winning 20 year NHL coach than some Random HF poster, who seems uninformed about systems employed by NHL hockey teams.

 

[Dekes For Days]

But you haven't answered my question at all, you claim we should be using a system and when I keep asking what that is, you throw out vague terms like possession and offensive.

I have answered your question. Multiple times. I don't know why you're demanding an in depth deep dive into the minutia of the systems, but it's a waste of time. Not only would you not understand, but it's irrelevant to the discussion. I've gone over aspects of our system that are hurting us, why it's hurting us, what we need to change, and how we should focus our system. That's what's important. The irony of you calling that vague when you've just been repeating 'dump and chase' constantly. Seems like you're just deflecting and arguing for arguing's sake.

Cup winning teams have one thing in common, they're physical, hard working and fast. Something Leaf teams have lacked in the playoffs

No, they don't. Cup winning teams are not all physical. Cup winning teams are not all fast. Cup winning teams are not all playing dump and chase. Cup winning teams are hard-working, but so are we. We have been all of these things before in the playoffs. We do not need to play like Maurice wants to win. Most cup winning teams dont.

 

[ClarkSittler]

I have answered your question. Multiple times. I don't know why you're demanding an in depth deep dive into the minutia of the systems, but it's a waste of time. Not only would you not understand, but it's irrelevant to the discussion. I've gone over aspects of our system that are hurting us, why it's hurting us, what we need to change, and how we should focus our system. That's what's important. The irony of you calling that vague when you've just been repeating 'dump and chase' constantly. Seems like you're just deflecting and arguing for arguing's sake.

No, they don't. Cup winning teams are not all physical. Cup winning teams are not all fast. Cup winning teams are not all playing dump and chase. Cup winning teams are hard-working, but so are we. We have been all of these things before in the playoffs. We do not need to play like Maurice wants to win. Most cup winning teams dont.

You haven't done a single one of the things you're claiming to have done. You mentioned possession, puck carrying and offense, those aren't systems. Show me where you've explained this system you want the Leafs to use. I'll wait. Again.
Oh but I won't understand it anyway, that's the excuse you're using? So you provided the answer or I wouldn't understand it? Which is it?

You don't think Florida, Vegas, Colorado and TB were physical, fast teams with a heavy forecheck? Did you watch the last five years of playoffs like at all?

And you think we've done all those things? You think we were more physical than the teams we played and outworked them? You think we we had a heavy forecheck and were aggressive around their net? Why did we only score 12 goals then? If you actually believe this then the discussion is pretty much over because your takes are borderline delusional.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

You haven't done a single one of the things you're claiming to have done. You mentioned possession, puck carrying and offense, those aren't systems. Show me where you've explained this system you want the Leafs to use. I'll wait. Again.
Oh but I won't understand it anyway, that's the excuse you're using? So you provided the answer or I wouldn't understand it? Which is it?

You don't think Florida, Vegas, Colorado and TB were physical, fast teams with a heavy forecheck? Did you watch the last five years of playoffs like at all?

And you think we've done all those things? You think we were more physical than the teams we played and outworked them? You think we we had a heavy forecheck and were aggressive around their net? Why did we only score 12 goals then? If you actually believe this then the discussion is pretty much over because your takes are borderline delusional.

Borderline?