Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose to Stars, 4-1

[Stephen]

The whole team is playing stupid dump and chase hockey, and it's making the whole team unsuccessful offensively. We're trying to force something that we don't need to and shouldnt. Our stars are the ones saving us snd dragging our offense along.

There shouldn’t be value judgement on dump and chase. It’s just a tool to move the puck into the offensive zone quickly and force the D to retreat.

 

[Leafs98]

Sounds like they all got behind the Loss Management shield and will be projecting a business as usual approach to downplay and diffuse team failures from now on.

Yes players all said same tonight. They are learning how to lose, as a team, together. Much different than Burke, Wilson and the players did 12 years ago. Todays team is much better at losing.

 

[saffronleaf]

Curious to see what lessons JT learned tonight. Gotta admire him, a real life long learner.

 

[Martin Skoula]

There shouldn’t be value judgement on dump and chase. It’s just a tool to move the puck into the offensive zone quickly and force the D to retreat.

Babcock Keefe and Berube have the same issue of a complete lack of flexibility. The thing we should be doing isn’t a specific breakout style, it should be picking from a variety of tools we have in the belt that are dynamically adapted to how the opponent is playing us and what they expect us to do.

You wouldn’t ever tell someone playing poker that the best strategy is to always bluff or always fold, you play the cards (their strengths and weaknesses vs yours) and you play the man (how they expect you to play those strengths and weaknesses).

 

[ClarkSittler]

The whole team is playing stupid dump and chase hockey, and it's making the whole team unsuccessful offensively. We're trying to force something that we don't need to and shouldnt. Our stars are the ones saving us snd dragging our offense along.

Seemed to work pretty well for Carolina when they destroyed us the other night and Vegas the Stanley Cup champs who look like they could win another.

The problem with the Leafs employing this system is that they don't apply enough pressure speed wise or physically so opposing teams have an easier time exiting their zone. Unless the entire team buys in this will never work and right now it appears they don't want to.

 

[Maple Leaf]

They can still win they need stalaez in net

 

[ClarkSittler]

They can still win they need stalaez in net

And McCabe back playing big minutes.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Could be a bad core. Rielly doesn't even exist in that context anymore. Changes need made, lines are not being changed. Why?

Line changes? That's not the problem. If anything, Berube needs to stop making line changes. He just ends up doing things like breaking up lines that are clicking, putting 4th liners on the top line, and putting Reaves back in. The core isn't the problem. They're saving us. Changes were made. Chasing the unnecessary changes that this board pretended were a magic fix all button is how we ended up in this mess.

Question Doesn't Calgary play the same system

Who cares? Nobody should be trying to emulate Calgary, much less us. They can do whatever system works best for them. We should do the system that works best for us, and stop pretending that there's only one type of system that wins in the playoffs.

Our PP tells all you need to know about this team

You're kind of right. 25 PP goals by our 1st unit and 1 PP goal by our 2nd unit is a good representation of how much our stars are carrying this team.

Seemed to work pretty well for Carolina when they destroyed us the other night and Vegas the Stanley Cup champs who look like they could win another.

Different teams are built differently, and they should be using different systems, and adapting to the team and game situation they have.

There shouldn’t be value judgement on dump and chase. It’s just a tool to move the puck into the offensive zone quickly and force the D to retreat.

Yes, it's just a tool, to be used for a specific purpose in specific situations, and there are consequences to it. We should not be praising it as something special, or forcing it in situations where we don't have to, on a team that is often capable of better options.

 

[ClarkSittler]

Line changes? That's not the problem. If anything, Berube needs to stop making line changes. He just ends up doing things like breaking up lines that are clicking, putting 4th liners on the top line, and putting Reaves back in. The core isn't the problem. They're saving us. Changes were made. Chasing the unnecessary changes that this board pretended were a magic fix all button is how we ended up in this mess.

Who cares? Nobody should be trying to emulate Calgary, much less us. They can do whatever system works best for them. We should do the system that works best for us, and stop pretending that there's only one type of system that wins in the playoffs.

You're kind of right. 25 PP goals by our 1st unit and 1 PP goal by our 2nd unit is a good representation of how much our stars are carrying this team.

Different teams are built differently, and they should be using different systems, and adapting to the team and game situation they have.

Yes, it's just a tool, to be used for a specific purpose in specific situations, and there are consequences to it. We should not be praising it as something special, or forcing it in situations where we don't have to, on a team that is often capable of better options.

Do tell, what is this system should the Leafs be using? Obviously the one's Keefe and Babcock tried to employ didn't work either. Does this magical system of yours resemble those used by Florida, Vegas, Colorado or Tampa Bay. You know the teams that won the last 5 Stanley Cups.

Maybe it isn't the system so much, might be more to do with the fortitude and work ethic of the players involved.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Obviously the one's Keefe and Babcock tried to employ didn't work either. Does this magical system of yours resemble those used by Florida, Vegas, Colorado or Tampa Bay. You know the teams that won the last 5 Stanley Cups.

Keefe's system was better, and more balanced and adaptable. Those cup winning teams didn't use the same systems. You're proving my point.

 

[Hallonbroder]

Awful, just awful. This is what happens when half the cap is spent on 3 bums and one playmaking savant - no flexibility, too many bad depth players since you can’t afford anything else etc. I feel for the coaches of this franchise, their GM/president don’t give them the tools to work with.

 

[Visnovsky]

Just write off the season and retool during the summer, this team is going nowhere.

 

[ClarkSittler]

Keefe's system was better, and more balanced and adaptable. Those cup winning teams didn't use the same systems. You're proving my point.

You didn't answer my question, what system should they be using? What systems did the cup winning teams use?

The peak of Keefe's system was winning one playoff game past the first round, if you think that it was "better, and more balanced and adaptable" then I guess you have a very low bar for success.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You didn't answer my question, what system should they be using? What systems did the cup winning teams use?

The peak of Keefe's system was winning one playoff game past the first round, if you think that it was "better, and more balanced and adaptable" then I guess you have a very low bar for success.

Your question is part of the issue; thinking we need to use only one specific system in the first place. Those cup winning teams used very different systems from each other, and adapted their system to their team and the situations they ran in to, and so should we. But as a baseline, we should be much more focused on possession and offense than event suffocation.

The peak of Keefe's system was being one of the best teams in the league and having some of the best underlying metrics in the league, with both strong offensive and defensive play.

 

[ClarkSittler]

Your question is part of the issue; thinking we need to use only one specific system in the first place. Those cup winning teams used very different systems from each other, and adapted their system to their team and the situations they ran in to, and so should we. But as a baseline, we should be much more focused on possession and offense than event suffocation.

You're the one who said "We should do the system that works best for us" so I was responding to that. Again for the third time, I'm asking, what system is that?

Saying we should be focused on possession and offense is almost meaningless. Last time I checked those cup winning teams were pretty good at both of those. They also employed a heavy forecheck and very physical game., something we lack right now which will hopefully change in time for the post-season.

You might want to read what last year's Stanley Cup champs had to say about the system they play, particularly the coach:

“It's a very aggressive game. So you're not giving ice…there's only really one piece of our game where we have patience. What we're trying to do is recreate the environment of the second and third period as often as we can. We don't want to slow down through the neutral zone, we don't regroup the puck and run a lot of routes in order to break something loose. It's really not that difficult to explain. If you watch a whole bunch of playoff hockey, we're trying to play that game, which is hard, which we would all agree. The playoffs are a very, very intense, very physical game, but I don't think you could play that for 82 (games). Just with travel alone, you don't have the energy level…but we're trying to. We're gonna ask them to do it. So it's very, very difficult to play that way, it's physically taxing to play that way. It's also, at times, not a lot of fun"

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/florida-panthers/features/what-makes-playing-paul-maurices-systems-so-difficult-several-panthers-players-explain

The peak of Keefe's system was being one of the best teams in the league and having some of the best underlying metrics in the league, with both strong offensive and defensive play.

And yet they had one total win beyond the first round in all of his years as a coach. That isn't "one of the best teams", that's a sad failure.