Line Combos: Leafs' biggest need?

[egd27]

An alarm clock to wake them up in time for puck drop.

 

[Racer88]

An alarm clock to wake them up in time for puck drop.

Agreed because if I have to listen to one more end of season presser where Marner admits that he wasn’t ready to start on time I’m going to lose what’s left of my mind.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well if you didn't know Babcock was on borrowed time after the 2019 season, you were likely in the minority.

Well there were certainly justified reasons to fire Babcock after the 2019 season, but Dubas didn't fire him then or "as soon as he possibly could". He fired him for reasons that any GM would fire any coach for.

It might have worked out for Tampa but it is not working for the Leafs.

Well, Cooper didn't win in his first year and a half either, but counters the idea that such a hire is "unsuitable".

 

[egd27]

Well there were certainly justified reasons to fire Babcock after the 2019 season, but Dubas didn't fire him then or "as soon as he possibly could". He fired him for reasons that any GM would fire any coach for.

As soon he possibly could = as soon as Brendan would allow it.

 

[MagicalRazor]

Alot of things need a change / retool

A big one to me is power play help.
they should he be scoring alot more goals on the PP at one point we were last in the league ? Or close to it .

 

[meefer]

Yeah, but you need also targets for that cap space. Just having cap space is an asset, but it's an asset only if you can use it to your advantage. Usually teams use that cap space to UFA players or signing RFA players. I'd say that in last few off seasons there have been three UFAs I'd really wanted to sign Tavares, Pietrangelo and Brodie. I probably miss some and off course, if there isn't any prominent players you can argue if we should sign Taylor Hall, but in foresight if you want cap space then you should avoid those near good enough players.

If you want sign good RFA players you have to draft them or either trade for them. At the moment we are "reaping the benefits" of Hunters drafts, so there isn't that much to sign. It's rare to teams trade away their impact players and by those I mean young defenseman or centers. Dubas has gone UFA route in that sense adding Muzzin and Campbell from trades and some are still arguing if Muzzin trade was good for us. Columbus have had that center problem for ages and Kekalainen is one of the most active GMs trade wise in the NHL and can't seem to solve it.

Last season was our Columbus of 2018-2019 season, where we went all-in and I think rightly so. Expansion draft prevented us from adding player with term on deadline, so we lost lots of futures, but I think sometimes you have to push. We still have defense in place, that last season showed to us. We still have two bonafide centers in this league to build around. There isn't team that is preserving their cap space. Edmonton just signed Hyman and Nurse because those were two best players for them available. Stupid move from my point of view, but did they have lots of options? If they trade Nurse away their defense is terrible and those 1st and 2nds from draft are years away and McDavid is in his prime.

Cap space means nothing if you can't utilize it properly and I don't see us being in the Coyotes mode where we should take bad contracts for futures. After watching this UFA period it's clear that there was no benefit for trading Marner away. I see no options for us to get better trough that route. Next off season we can do that and then we have option to sign Rielly (hopefully that decision is made before season starts). It's pipe dream that we can trade Marner for NHL ready young up and coming (cheap) defense.

We have to draft those future RFAs in some point so I really hope that we don't go to that Foligno route anymore. We can't afford it, but otherwise we have to build around this core until there is option to make significant change by adding player like Pietrangelo, "Heiskanen", "Vasilevsky" or "McDavid". Though those are players other teams build around, like we build around Matthews and Marner. At the moment it's nature of this league, this isn't some fantasy GM. There are openings for players like Muzzin or Devin Toews, then you need that cap space but at the moment we don't have tradable futures for those trades. You have also 30 other competitors on trade market, so it isn't some 100% option to get those players when their available. This isn't old time NHL where GMs shuffle players like card decks.

In some sense we are bit entitled here, since we were pretty lucky that we got Nylander, Matthews and Marner from those drafts to build around. Instead of Reinharts and Dal Colles. Our worst screw up was having bad drafting in later rounds in those drafts, which have meant using futures for adding to our core. Which hopefully changes since we have Liljegren, Sandin and Robertson coming up.

Lou had option to pile up some assets from Bozak, JVR, Gardiner etc. But it is hindsight to go to that route and I think most of us supported those own rentals, so I don't go there.

I agree with your drafting comment. Since 2009 we've drafted and seen positive contributions from: Kadri, Rielly, Brown, Johnsson, Gauthier, Engvall, Nylander, Dermott, Marner, and Matthews. Out of the 60 picks we've had up until the Matthews' year. Had we managed to draft 2 quality 3rd line players and one 2nd or 3rd pairing defenseman out of the 50 remaining picks (a paltry 0.06% success rate) how much of the juggling would we be watching today? And, while I agree with your "I don't go there" comment, the traded picks for upgrades and the lack of return on a Bozak/JVR/Gardiner move at the deadline...woulda, coulda, shoulda.

 

[deprw]

As soon he possibly could = as soon as Brendan would allow it.

Babcock got his chance after that 2019 season. I think with his resume maybe rightly so. Guy with his accolades should have longer leash, but did he used it? Nope, he was same stubborn ass that he was before. Babcocks actions got him to that point and as person praising accountability Babcock himself had zero. Not mentioning his "be gud pro" -attitude, that he couldn't himself follow.

You want Dubas to adapt and to change, but you defend Babcock that wouldn't and couldn't change. Which way you want it? You want people that learn from their mistake or people who are stubborn asses? You can't have it both ways.


I actually think Dubas adapts, but since his not changing our top4 no one sees that. Why he don't change it? I don't think he can get good enough replacement for our players. I don't see us being in position where we do those Atkinson - Voracek sideways moves with Marner. Price of 1st line talent defense and centers is high in this league. That is the reason Oilers had to sign Nurse and reason why I'm happy that we acquired Tavares from UFA market when we had a chance. Why on earth would Dubas trade Marner during this off season anyway, there wasn't one player we could have used that cap space to and we don't have our own RFAs coming up that can utilize that cap space better, which would be reason to trade him for futures. We have plenty of options if we want to change directions summer 2022.

Our star potential and defense gives us good enough chance going all the way next season. I'm not excited as I used to be, but still during cap era this is still one of those high years for this organization coming up. Would like to forget years 2004-2015, but I can't and because of that I'm still happy where we are.

 

[Bluelines]

Still LW and goalie, its a MASH unit over there.

 

[123offtheglass]

someone to drag them into a game, an emotional leader

Kessel & Geno?

 

[egd27]

Babcock got his chance after that 2019 season. I think with his resume maybe rightly so. Guy with his accolades should have longer leash, but did he used it? Nope, he was same stubborn ass that he was before. Babcocks actions got him to that point and as person praising accountability Babcock himself had zero. Not mentioning his "be gud pro" -attitude, that he couldn't himself follow.

You want Dubas to adapt and to change, but you defend Babcock that wouldn't and couldn't change. Which way you want it? You want people that learn from their mistake or people who are stubborn asses? You can't have it both ways.


I actually think Dubas adapts, but since his not changing our top4 no one sees that. Why he don't change it? I don't think he can get good enough replacement for our players. I don't see us being in position where we do those Atkinson - Voracek sideways moves with Marner. Price of 1st line talent defense and centers is high in this league. That is the reason Oilers had to sign Nurse and reason why I'm happy that we acquired Tavares from UFA market when we had a chance. Why on earth would Dubas trade Marner during this off season anyway, there wasn't one player we could have used that cap space to and we don't have our own RFAs coming up that can utilize that cap space better, which would be reason to trade him for futures. We have plenty of options if we want to change directions summer 2022.

Our star potential and defense gives us good enough chance going all the way next season. I'm not excited as I used to be, but still during cap era this is still one of those high years for this organization coming up. Would like to forget years 2004-2015, but I can't and because of that I'm still happy where we are.

I wasn't defending Babcock, I agree that it was time for him to go. My point was Dubas (and most others) knew that is was just a matter of time, and IMO, he should have had a better replacement ready to step in than Keefe.

 

[Mess]

I wasn't defending Babcock, I agree that it was time for him to go. My point was Dubas (and most others) knew that is was just a matter of time, and IMO, he should have had a better replacement ready to step in than Keefe.

If Dubas would have gone from Babcock to Barry Trotz instead of his pal Keefe I'm almost certain we wouldn't have lost both the CBJ and MON series due to coaching.

Lou Lam now 2 X Exec of the year thanks in part to being smart enough to understand snapped up Barry Trotz in a heartbeat.

Rookie President, rookie GM and rookie coach in Toronto, a recipe for disaster, who appear to more interested in creating their own junior exec country club, and that is why experienced and past winning GM and coaches need not apply nor stay on.

Leafs biggest need a major housecleaning in management and lets bring in someone at all the key position that appear to know what they're doing, with a track record of past success.

 

[Dekes For Days]

rookie GM and rookie coach in Toronto, a recipe for disaster

Yeah, just like Tampa, who will also clearly never win.

 

[Racer88]

Yeah, just like Tampa, who will also clearly never win.

Good thing Tampa’s GM built a decent team and the coach knew what to do with it…….unlike ours

 

[Dekes For Days]

Good thing Tampa’s GM built a decent team and the coach knew what to do with it…….unlike ours

Our GM has also built a decent team, and our coach also knows what to do with it. But that's also besides the point - Mess incorrectly suggested that such a thing was a "recipe for disaster", when the back-to-back Cup Champions did the exact same thing.

 

[ULF_55]

A #1 goalie who steals a big game.
A #1 defender who steps up when it matters.
A player who brings the team together.

 

[Racer88]

Our GM has also built a decent team, and our coach also knows what to do with it. But that's also besides the point - Mess incorrectly suggested that such a thing was a "recipe for disaster", when the back-to-back Cup Champions did the exact same thing.

I disagree with you on points 1 and 2 but ya you are correct on point 3 about what’s we are arguing about. Lol

 

[34]

Where is the option for all the above in the poll.

 

[Dreakmur]

I disagree with you on points 1 and 2 but ya you are correct on point 3 about what’s we are arguing about. Lol

I think Dubas has assembled a good group of players. I don't think they work together to form a cohesive team that matches the sum of it's parts.

 

[ULF_55]

If Dubas would have gone from Babcock to Barry Trotz instead of his pal Keefe I'm almost certain we wouldn't have lost both the CBJ and MON series due to coaching.

Lou Lam now 2 X Exec of the year thanks in part to being smart enough to understand snapped up Barry Trotz in a heartbeat.

Rookie President, rookie GM and rookie coach in Toronto, a recipe for disaster, who appear to more interested in creating their own junior exec country club, and that is why experienced and past winning GM and coaches need not apply nor stay on.

Leafs biggest need a major housecleaning in management and lets bring in someone at all the key position that appear to know what they're doing, with a track record of past success.

Would Trotz even consider Toronto?

It did take Trotz 4 years with Ovechkin before he won, and it took him 19 seasons to get past the 2nd. round.

I'm not sold on Keefe, I'm not sure there is much creativity being displayed.

I could go for some pyramid power!

 

[Dayjobdave]

I would have grabbed Trotz or Quennville as a coach.

in fact for all those who want to blow the team up if they get bounced in the first round again, I think a more likely and more effective move would be a new but experienced - and tough - voice behind the bench.

 

[nuck]

I picked a coaching change as the obvious need. Making some lineup tweaks at the last minute that don't work isn't being adaptable if its just another fail. I don't buy that AM and MM were great in the regular season and then somehow lost their heart and drive in the last hundred minutes of the playoffs. Out chancing the 18th place team in the league is automatic and a coach deserves no credit for that. The coach has to prepare them with looks and plays the other team hasn't seen all year and you don't start this in practice after Game #4.

Unlike changing the core 4 this is really simple to do because all Keefe has to do is study what didn't work and not repeat it. I'm assuming he will approach load management and line combinations differently. The only "mystery" is the pp which has to get eventually sorted out (doesn't it?) If Chicago can do it better led by a 16 point defenseman the Leafs should be able to surpass that.

Change the coaching if not necessarily the coach and the results will be different. That is probably the best we can hope for with the clubs current committed direction.

 

[jaric1862]

The biggest need is a physical defensive defenceman, who is very good at penalty killing. A guy who's also capable of paying in the top 4 in a pinch

 

[Torontonian]

Went with our prospects needing to take the next step and becoming legit NHL players. A lot easier to add talent and players through free agency if you can use your prospects on ELC deals to play important roles for your team.

That's how Tampa has done it and other teams, they added talent through trades and FA because they have been able to pay 900k to good young players on their ELC.

Easier to save 2.5m-3m on a winger for example if Robertson is able to play top 9 mins.

 

[freshwind]

just reading some of this is perplexing ... hammering our management for going with a rookie coach who was an ahl champion and then using tampa as an example of how that worked out vs us...
couple of facts...

keefe has not had an actual training camp and pre-season yet

cooper had 6 full seasons before winning the cup, finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 1st and 1st in those non cup winning seasons, playoff success was like a yoyo, and they missed them all completely right in the middle
if tampa is a comparable then many of these conversations are about 2-3 years premature ...

 

[egd27]

As with players there are rookies that are Calder candidates and rookies that just never really make it.

It's no different with coaches or GM's. Some have it, some don't.