Leafs are the Victims: Editor in Leaf

[Mess]

Then you're not a true Leafs fan.

Real fans would much rather sift through terabytes of data to find the one thing that might possibly suggest that there is a slight chance that there could maybe be something vague enough that it perhaps could be used to suggest that we might almost have been good enough.

So much more fun than actually watching the most exciting sport in the world.

The analytics gang looks to positive spreadsheet numbers as a silver lining, to help wash down the disappointment of real life actual results and then conclude "bad luck" when they don't match the outcome. Its like awarding someone a competition ribbon as a feel good measure for effort in an event for trying hard at least.

But most hockey fans know you can out-shoot an opponent, or out-chance an opponent with better scoring changes, and control both the time of possession clock and shot clock and still lose an NHL hockey game where its outcome is decided on the ice and not in the spreadsheet. If you're the heavy favourites in a series like Leafs were against Montreal or CBJ and expected to win but lost, it shouldn't surprise anyone the better more skilled/offensive team might generate more high danger scoring chances and register more shots (ie expected GF/GA).

There are many external factors outside the analytics that determine who wins an NHL game in addition to "bad luck" when you don't like the outcome like goaltending and Refs calling penalties and thus special teams play, and coaching decisions via line-ups and matchups as well as player mistakes and giveaways, and systems and style of play changing come playoff time etc etc.

So when you're watching the games you get to see all this unfold in real time live events to help you understand wins and losses, you don't need to reference any spreadsheet numbers to help soften the blow.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The analytics gang looks to positive spreadsheet numbers as a silver lining, to help wash down the disappointment of real life actual results

It's all "actual results". Just looking at different aspects. There is value in looking at more than the win and loss column over some particular small sample.

There are many external factors outside the analytics that determine who wins an NHL game

There are multiple factors that influence the end result of an NHL game. Nobody has said otherwise. That's kind of the whole point. It's not as simple as concluding that everything on a team is wrong and sucks because a team lost. That's why analytics are important - to better understand how and why the surface result came to be, and what should be addressed moving forward.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Actually, a wide variety of valuable statistics are used to paint a more complete and accurate picture, and it's hilarious that you think people utilizing them don't watch hockey. They often watch much more than your average fan, and they actually understand what's happening and why. Not sure what's "exciting" about endlessly repeating one small sample surface result with no context to pretend that everything is horrible.

I have no problem with using "a wide variety of valuable statistics", or the people who use them "to paint a more complete and accurate picture".

I also have no problem making fun of the people who will desperately cling to one individual stat, often taken out of context, as proof that we should have won the Cup this year.

Not sure why you think I was "endlessly repeating one small sample surface result with no context to pretend that everything is horrible". I watched most of the playoff games this year, even after we were eliminated, and there was some great hockey. Personally, I would much rather watch a good series between two top teams than read some random fan's "but our xgf!"

 

[All Mod Cons]

James Tanner definitely posts on these forums.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I also have no problem making fun of the people who will desperately cling to one individual stat, often taken out of context, as proof that we should have won the Cup this year.

Nobody has said or done anything close to that.

Personally, I would much rather watch a good series between two top teams than read some random fan's "but our xgf!"

Many people enjoy watching a good series and also enjoy discussing hockey, what's happened, and their team in more detailed, accurate, and productive ways than simply who won or lost a series. It's not one or the other.

 

[egd27]

It's all "actual results". Just looking at different aspects. There is value in looking at more than the win and loss column over some particular small sample.

There are multiple factors that influence the end result of an NHL game. Nobody has said otherwise. That's kind of the whole point. It's not as simple as concluding that everything on a team is wrong and sucks because a team lost. That's why analytics are important - to better understand how and why the surface result came to be, and what should be addressed moving forward.

What do they tell us needs to be addressed?

 

[egd27]

James Tanner definitely posts on these forums.

Maybe even in this thread.

 

[Racer88]

Not everything is wrong with this team just Shanny, Dubas, Keefe and Marner

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nobody has said or done anything close to that.

Many people enjoy watching a good series and also enjoy discussing hockey, what's happened, and their team in more detailed, accurate, and productive ways than simply who won or lost a series. It's not one or the other.

Unfortunately, there are a few people we only see the extremes, and I don't agree with either.

But just because I laugh at a few extremists with a bit of reductio ad absurdum, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate intelligent discussions.

If you're not one of those people, you shouldn't worry.

 

[All Mod Cons]

The analytics gang looks to positive spreadsheet numbers as a silver lining, to help wash down the disappointment of real life actual results and then conclude "bad luck" when they don't match the outcome. Its like awarding someone a competition ribbon as a feel good measure for effort in an event for trying hard at least.

But most hockey fans know you can out-shoot an opponent, or out-chance an opponent with better scoring changes, and control both the time of possession clock and shot clock and still lose an NHL hockey game where its outcome is decided on the ice and not in the spreadsheet. If you're the heavy favourites in a series like Leafs were against Montreal or CBJ and expected to win but lost, it shouldn't surprise anyone the better more skilled/offensive team might generate more high danger scoring chances and register more shots (ie expected GF/GA).

There are many external factors outside the analytics that determine who wins an NHL game in addition to "bad luck" when you don't like the outcome like goaltending and Refs calling penalties and thus special teams play, and coaching decisions via line-ups and matchups as well as player mistakes and giveaways, and systems and style of play changing come playoff time etc etc.

So when you're watching the games you get to see all this unfold in real time live events to help you understand wins and losses, you don't need to reference any spreadsheet numbers to help soften the blow.

But it helps analytics fans feel superior and feel they know things that people who understand hockey don't know.

That's why they, and Dubas, come across as incredibly smug.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

How'd they do?

better than us.
every year in the league

 

[HamiltonNHL]

James Tanner definitely posts on these forums.

and so did every Kadri sister

 

[Dekes For Days]

Unfortunately, there are a few people we only see the extremes, and I don't agree with either.

Except the supposed "extreme" person that you described doesn't actually exist anywhere, and your comments have largely not been about avoiding extremes - it's been about mocking a valuable statistic that is overwhelmingly used within the intelligent discussions you claim to appreciate, to help counter the extreme positions you claim to disagree with.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Hes a kid in moms basement. Still has mats sundin poster above his bed

You know it's a Mitch Marner poster........

 

[Arthur Morgan]

"Victims of a results based industry"

Yeah, huge victims having been bounced in the first round or missed the playoffs in the last 5 years straight.

At some point you need to look in the mirror. I believe this team has underperformed but 5 straight years of it points to lazy players with no heart.

I liked that team that played Washington and lost in 6. back when things looked good still

 

[Havoc]

Tanner is so irritating . Cant stand his articles.

But at least he makes an effort to back up his homerism and keeps it as a logical discussion instead of rage.

Can't say the same for majority of the hate I read here.

 

[Racer88]

I liked that team that played Washington and lost in 6. back when things looked good still

You mean when they were playing hard for their RFA contracts

 

[Arthur Morgan]

You mean when they were playing hard for their RFA contracts

and we still had Kadri, JVR, Bozak. who else. things were just better then. but I guess