New York Islanders: Lamoriello Contract Not Renewed; John Collins Searching for Next GM

[periferal]

I'll reserve judgement for now.

So you have no opinion on any of the potential hires for President and/or GM?

 

[doublechili]

I'd say you're totally joking because you put the emoji there....Alas you also decided to post it and most would say what makes something funny is that it's at least partially true (so not sure it's a 100% joke....But hope it is).

I wasn't joking. How do you discount a guy like Pridham just because he's an AGM on Toronto? FLA hired Zito from a mediocre team, but he turned out okay, right?

 

[periferal]

I think the Isles really want to interview at least Scott White with Dallas, but they cannot wait another 2 weeks, if not 4 weeks, to be able to speak with him.

The NHL Draft Combine starts June 1st (which is 2 weeks away), so a new President/GM needs to be able to meet with his staff/scouts prior.

Certainly helps when you have #1 overall, but if the Isles were entertaining trading down then you you need to do some serious due diligence on many of the prospects (not to mention for later round picks).

 

[periferal]

I wasn't joking. How do you discount a guy like Pridham just because he's an AGM on Toronto? FLA hired Zito from a mediocre team, but he turned out okay, right?

This is what drives me crazy - When people write their own script not based on reality.

YOU are saying I don't want Shanahan because he's from the Leafs.

I don't want Shanahan because we just got rid of Lou...And he hired him (and then hired Dubas).

Get your compass centered...I don't care what team our next GM/President comes from. I just want the right guy. Go hire Gorton for all I care and he probably still has a rangers logo tattooed on his heart.

The real question is...Do you want Shanahan? And if so...Would love to know why. Forget about what team he works for. Look at his entire resume since he was hired in 2014 and point to a few things you like that he did...And any moves that any reasonably smart NHL executive couldn't do.

 

[Konk]

So you have no opinion on any of the potential hires for President and/or GM?

I think we're on the same page. I prefer Darche over anyone else. It's time for new blood.

I would be incredibly disappointed if Bergevin gets the job.

 

[Kimota]

Don't listen to the naysayers. As a Habs fan, I have liked Bergevin for a whole chunk of time there. It's just that when he left, it was time to turn the page. Our two best players Price and Weber retired at the same time and the wheels literally fell off.

But that depends in what you want. Bergevin could do a reset but Darche probably would be the guy for a rebuild. But if you want bold moves, Bergevin is not afraid to do that.

 

[Throttle]

Don't listen to the naysayers. As a Habs fan, I have liked Bergevin for a whole chunk of time there. It's just that when he left, it was time to turn the page. Our two best players Price and Weber retired at the same time and the wheels literally fell off.

But that depends in what you want. Bergevin could do a reset but Darche probably would be the guy for a rebuild. But if you want bold moves, Bergevin is not afraid to do that.

Whatever guy in his interview says he’s going to bring back shopping cart pretzels and trades Barzal gets the job.

 

[IslesNorway]

Bergevin would be such an effing joke. Clearly the owners have no desire to win anything if they choose to hire him.

 

[Habitant#1]

Unsolicited two cents from this Habs fan (Apologies and feel free to delete if this isn't helpful):

The bottom line is that if the Islanders hire Bergevin, I would be happy that the Islanders will not be a threat to the Habs for the next 10 years. Here's why:

Bergevin never has a plan.

Every season his goal was to make the team better, with the hope of making the playoffs where 'anything can happen'. There was never any overarching plan or strategy. Just try to get better with trades and signings, try to squeeze into the playoffs and hope Carey Price can win some rounds. He did overall do well with trades, but he as never building with purpose or something cohesive.

Also, he regularly manages to get into personal pissing contests with his own star players and ends up alienating them: Pacioretty, Markov, Subban and Danault come to mind.


As for Darche: everything I read about him when the Habs were searching for a new GM was amazing. It sounds like he's gone to the BriseBois school of GMing and has learned a lot. He was the guy I most wanted to be Habs GM, particularly considering I knew very little about Kent Hughes and had mixed feelings bout Gorton's record with the NYR.

 

[Isles72]

I wasn't joking. How do you discount a guy like Pridham just because he's an AGM on Toronto? FLA hired Zito from a mediocre team, but he turned out okay, right?

I've always been under the impression Pridman is their cap wizard . That doesnt mean he's in a closet crunching numbers all day but I've wondered what else he's contributed in a scouting sense in terms of pro or amateur

 

[Big L]

Unsolicited two cents from this Habs fan (Apologies and feel free to delete if this isn't helpful):

The bottom line is that if the Islanders hire Bergevin, I would be happy that the Islanders will not be a threat to the Habs for the next 10 years.

 

[beach]

We aren’t getting Hagens. It’s Schaefer or Misa and I would lean 90% towards Schaefer. Hagens may not even go top 5 let alone #1

Hagens will go at #3. The drop in rankings is due to Canadian bias.

 

[Konk]

Hagens will go at #3. The drop in rankings is due to Canadian bias.

I'm American. I want to see American players succeed and I think that narrative is nonsense.

Hagens was always billed as Jack Hughes with an edge. He doesn't have an edge and he's just not as talented as Hughes. He's fast, but doesn't have that extra gear. He's a pretty good, but not great playmaker. He's a good, but not elite stick handler. He's responsible defensively, but not particularly a standout in his own zone. He's usually in the right place, but rarely makes the clutch gamebreaking play. His shot isn't too great and in general, he always leaves you wanting more. This is why he likely won't be a top 3 pick, but still could hang in the top 5.

 

[Essenege]

Bergevin is hated on HFHabs, that’s because Habs fans can’t understand

- Price carried a bottom/middle tier team to top tier results. This meant mostly low draft picks.

- He never had the « go » for a rebuild, again Price prime being the main factor.

He still won 80% of his trades, some of them highway robbery (Pacioretty for Suzuki , Weise and Fleischmann for Danault and Romanov, Jeff Petry for a second when he was still good)

He was able to temporarily build a team good enough that if Price went on a tear they had a shot a the cup. Yes, Price was a huge factor in ‘21 but that team still outrageously dominated the Jets and tied Vegas in scoring chances in the WCF.

If the Islanders are not going the rebuild route, Bergevin has proven he is a good “retooler”.

For a rebuild he is unproven. He messed up with the few higher draft picks he had but it’s a small sample.

 

[beach]

I'm American. I want to see American players succeed and I think that narrative is nonsense.

Hagens was always billed as Jack Hughes with an edge. He doesn't have an edge and he's just not as talented as Hughes. He's fast, but doesn't have that extra gear. He's a pretty good, but not great playmaker. He's a good, but not elite stick handler. He's responsible defensively, but not particularly a standout in his own zone. He's usually in the right place, but rarely makes the clutch gamebreaking play. His shot isn't too great and in general, he always leaves you wanting more. This is why he likely won't be a top 3 pick, but still could hang in the top 5.

So he was ranked number 1 from most analysts until less than a year ago, but suddenly doesn't have an edge, doesn't have an extra gear, not a great playmaker, not an elite stick handler, rarely makes a game breaking play, and his shot isn't too great. Okkkaaaaayyyy.

 

[Konk]

So he was ranked number 1 from most analysts until less than a year ago, but suddenly doesn't have an edge, doesn't have an extra gear, not a great playmaker, not an elite stick handler, rarely makes a game breaking play, and his shot isn't too great. Okkkaaaaayyyy.

He never had the edge, never had an extra gear, was never a great playmaker, elite stick handler, gamebreaker, etc. That was all overhype from USA hockey homers. He was never as talented as Hughes. All of this has become more and more evident as he's played against higher levels of competition.

I don't know how people don’t understand that just because a player was ranked #1 heading into the draft year, that it doesn't mean anything. They can still be passed by in development during their draft year and this is actually quite normal. Remember Phil Kessel? The same thing happened to him. He was the potential #1 pick a year before the 2006 draft and during the year Toews, EJ, Staal, and Backstrom all passed him by. In hindsight, Toews and Backstrom were still clearly better picks, Staal is arguable, and EJ never had the toolbox to go with all of his tools.

Being ranked #1 in September rankings is meaningless, especially if you're dropping by November.

 

[beach]

Most analysts that had him ranked #1 were Canadian, not over hyped USA hockey homers. I say he goes to the Hawks with number 3.

 

[periferal]

Unsolicited two cents from this Habs fan (Apologies and feel free to delete if this isn't helpful):

The bottom line is that if the Islanders hire Bergevin, I would be happy that the Islanders will not be a threat to the Habs for the next 10 years. Here's why:

Bergevin never has a plan.

Every season his goal was to make the team better, with the hope of making the playoffs where 'anything can happen'. There was never any overarching plan or strategy. Just try to get better with trades and signings, try to squeeze into the playoffs and hope Carey Price can win some rounds. He did overall do well with trades, but he as never building with purpose or something cohesive.

Also, he regularly manages to get into personal pissing contests with his own star players and ends up alienating them: Pacioretty, Markov, Subban and Danault come to mind.


As for Darche: everything I read about him when the Habs were searching for a new GM was amazing. It sounds like he's gone to the BriseBois school of GMing and has learned a lot. He was the guy I most wanted to be Habs GM, particularly considering I knew very little about Kent Hughes and had mixed feelings bout Gorton's record with the NYR.

I think this post is more on target in regards to Bergevin than any we've seen on Isles HF since Lou was fired.

This is why I don't want Bergevin....It's almost as if he's addicted to making (big) moves and doesn't understand how to actually build a team.

Here's the thing none of us should get past...He was already working with the Kings when they needed a GM - And they totally passed on him.

I just keep thinking about the general reaction to the Isles GM hire if it's Bergevin, and you can already feel how others would be snickering at us knowing we f***ed it up.

We really should be Darche or bust at this point. I don't care that he's inexperienced (and even that is debatable given his role with Tampa).

 

[beach]

He never had the edge, never had an extra gear, was never a great playmaker, elite stick handler, gamebreaker, etc. That was all overhype from USA hockey homers. He was never as talented as Hughes. All of this has become more and more evident as he's played against higher levels of competition.

I don't know how people don’t understand that just because a player was ranked #1 heading into the draft year, that it doesn't mean anything. They can still be passed by in development during their draft year and this is actually quite normal. Remember Phil Kessel? The same thing happened to him. He was the potential #1 pick a year before the 2006 draft and during the year Toews, EJ, Staal, and Backstrom all passed him by. In hindsight, Toews and Backstrom were still clearly better picks, Staal is arguable, and EJ never had the toolbox to go with all of his tools.

Most analysts that had him ranked #1 were Canadian, not over hyped USA hockey homers. I say he goes to the Hawks with number 3. You even had him at #2 as of February. Sad that he lost all of his skills in 90 days.

 

[Konk]

Most analysts that had him ranked #1 were Canadian, not over hyped USA hockey homers. I say he goes to the Hawks with number 3.

The hype about him being Jack Hughes with an edge was from USA Hockey homers.

Preliminary rankings aren't the beacon of certainty that you're trying to make them out to be. They're essentially a rough draft for prospect rankings.

 

[ScaredStreit]

HF posters just read the online reports and go with that. We don't really have any true foundation/basis for our analysis, unless some of us are NHL scouts or something. Plus development is much more important. Tampa got Point in the 3rd round and Kucherov in the 2nd

 

[periferal]

HF posters just read the online reports and go with that. We don't really have any true foundation/basis for our analysis, unless some of us are NHL scouts or something. Plus development is much more important. Tampa got Point in the 3rd round and Kucherov in the 2nd

Are you really saying that player development is more important than scouting? Nah - You can't be.

You think Kurcherov and Point would've sucked if they weren't on the Lightning and were on like the Blue Jackets or Ducks?

Conversely you think that guys like Ho-Sang or Wahlstrom would've made it if they were on the Lightning or Panthers?

No chance on either.

I'll agree that a certain coach/system/franchise can bring out the best (or worst) in a player, but the foundation of any player's talent, desire, and smarts are all built inside them before they are even drafted. I just think that most of those players reach that potential on their own.

And while I think Jon Cooper is a good coach, no question the #1 reason for their success was due to how amazing they've been at drafting the past 10+ years.

Thus once again...There is nothing more important in building an NHL Cup contender than your scouting department.

 

[GM4Hire]

Bergevin is hated on HFHabs, that’s because Habs fans can’t understand

- Price carried a bottom/middle tier team to top tier results. This meant mostly low draft picks.

- He never had the « go » for a rebuild, again Price prime being the main factor.

He still won 80% of his trades, some of them highway robbery (Pacioretty for Suzuki , Weise and Fleischmann for Danault and Romanov, Jeff Petry for a second when he was still good)

He was able to temporarily build a team good enough that if Price went on a tear they had a shot a the cup. Yes, Price was a huge factor in ‘21 but that team still outrageously dominated the Jets and tied Vegas in scoring chances in the WCF.

If the Islanders are not going the rebuild route, Bergevin has proven he is a good “retooler”.

For a rebuild he is unproven. He messed up with the few higher draft picks he had but it’s a small sample.

He took Jesperi Kotkaniemi @3 when he was rated around 10 because he needed to find a first line center instead of trading back which I’m sure he tried but found no takers probably.
The play was if he couldn’t trade back, take the best player available which was Brady at the time.

 

[GM4Hire]

Most analysts that had him ranked #1 were Canadian, not over hyped USA hockey homers. I say he goes to the Hawks with number 3. You even had him at #2 as of February. Sad that he lost all of his skills in 90 days.

Hagens didn’t show he was a difference maker this year, he showed he was a good player which may be good enough for #3 or it may not. It will be 3 or later

 

[Konk]

Most analysts that had him ranked #1 were Canadian, not over hyped USA hockey homers. I say he goes to the Hawks with number 3. You even had him at #2 as of February. Sad that he lost all of his skills in 90 days.

Replying again since you edited.

No one says he lost all of his skill, so I'm not sure where you got that from.

I had him #2 in February because I had only watched him at the WJCs, then I got to see him play more at BC and having a larger sample size, my view of him changed. I also got to see more of the other players and there just isn't a lot that separates Misa, Martone, and Hagens. My opinion has also become that I don't see any of them becoming elite players in the NHL.

Do you still think Noah Dobson is a 70 point, future Norris winner? Or did seeing him play more this past season make you realize perhaps he has more holes in his game than he showed last year? Does your opinion on any player not change the more you see them play? Or is it one and done, what they appear to be the first time you watch them sticks forever?

I have another question for you -- if the Canadian analysts that had him ranked #1 dropped him from the top spot because of Canadian bias, why would they have him there in the first place? Wouldn't they have been biased against him the entire time, or did they just start becoming biased in November?

To add -- I get it, everyone has bias'. I know I'm biased towards American players and physical, tough players. I have even bought into the narrative that Hagens' dropping was due to Canadian bias. That said, I try to be conscious of my bias, I admit when I'm wrong due to my bias (I was wrong about Nick Ritchie, Kieffer Bellows), but overall -- you can't always stick to your first impression or let your bias get in the way of what's increasingly obvious. I try to adjust my opinions on players and viewpoints with more information and that may result in my opinion changing over time.