New York Islanders: Lamoriello Contract Not Renewed; John Collins Searching for Next GM

[LeapOnOver]

Got news for you...Lou was just as bad of a GM on day 1 of his tenure as he was in year 7. A bunch of people we're basking the glow of snow being gone and/or couldn't understand that it was Trotz covering that fact up. Sorry it took you 4 extra years to realize we had a subpar GM.

Like others here feel free to take as many shot at me as you want. Reality is I'm 100% fine with a total rebuild that will take years...As long as it's being run by a great GM.

Lou stunk. So did Snow. As did Milbury.

Guess according to you we shouldn't call that out until....Around year 7 of them f***ing up the team? Happy to admit I'm both more emphatic, but not nearly as patient as you.

What a juxtaposition: "I'm fine with a total rebuild that will take years" / "not nearly as patient as you"

When is it fair to say a rebuild isn't working? Is Yzerman a subpar GM?

 

[GM4Hire]

Get us a Kent Hughes clone !

 

[doublechili]

The real problem with hiring a retread is everyone can point to their bad moves.

Like George McPhee? Remember when he was available and working for the Isles and half the board didn't want him because of the Martin Erat trade? Then it turns out he pulls off genius moves in VGK to turn them into a Cup winner and perennial contender. Whoopsie.

 

[Throttle]

Like George McPhee? Remember when he was available and working for the Isles and half the board didn't want him because of the Martin Erat trade? Then it turns out he pulls off genius moves in VGK to turn them into a Cup winner and perennial contender. Whoopsie.

Checkmate.

 

[Islanders4Cups]

What a juxtaposition: "I'm fine with a total rebuild that will take years" / "not nearly as patient as you"

When is it fair to say a rebuild isn't working? Is Yzerman a subpar GM?

Exactly. The President and GM of the team sets the tone of the organization and then a million decisions and factors come into play that is not necessarily in anyone’s control but is decided by everyone.

A lot of luck comes into play as well.

As someone who believes, if Barzal plays a full season, we are buyers at the trade deadline, we are probably watching playoff games right now instead of watching a search for a front office.

Stevie Y is not a bad GM and I would take him in a second but appears to have been stuck in a perpetual rebuild.

Such an outcome is always possible if a tear down is coming.

 

[YearlyLottery]

Like George McPhee? Remember when he was available and working for the Isles and half the board didn't want him because of the Martin Erat trade? Then it turns out he pulls off genius moves in VGK to turn them into a Cup winner and perennial contender. Whoopsie.

Agreed! There is something to be said about learning from your mistakes the first time around. Look at Barry Trotz when he left Nashville without a Cup.

 

[MikeyMike01]

Does it really matter who we hire? They will automatically become the next whipping boy for Perif, especially if we don't win the cup in year 1. Heck, Perif was already targeting Lou on only year 4 of his tenure aggressively, and passive aggressively in years 2 and 3.

Some people are only happy when they’re unhappy.

 

[crashthenet]

Interesting look at Lou's tenure by many. The references to inheriting the Snow roster seemingly leaves out the part about Snow allowing the Islanders best player of the last quarter century to walk out the door with zero in return. The moves made in the wake of that actually set the team up for success. Plenty of people write off the ridiculous way the 21-22 season was handled by the league but it was ludicrous. Overlook the preponderance of injuries or the blame the GM I guess for that as well.

The Snow roster plus Tavares missed the playoffs the two years preceding his arrival but continue to look at his time here as failure.

 

[GM4Hire]

Interesting look at Lou's tenure by many. The references to inheriting the Snow roster seemingly leaves out the part about Snow allowing the Islanders best player of the last quarter century to walk out the door with zero in return. The moves made in the wake of that actually set the team up for success. Plenty of people write off the ridiculous way the 21-22 season was handled by the league but it was ludicrous. Overlook the preponderance of injuries or the blame the GM I guess for that as well.

The Snow roster plus Tavares missed the playoffs the two years preceding his arrival but continue to look at his time here as failure.

I had posted back then that an ex Hab exec who coached my daughter had mentioned that Snow was not the face of the Isles during those discussions, it was the owners who were involved in trying to get Tavares locked up. I think if Snow was in control, he moves him at the deadline but we will never know.

 

[MJF]

I had posted back then that an ex Hab exec who coached my daughter had mentioned that Snow was not the face of the Isles during those discussions, it was the owners who were involved in trying to get Tavares locked up. I think if Snow was in control, he moves him at the deadline but we will never know.

This is true. Scott Malkin told Snow not to trade Tavares, and it was Malkin who was flying to California once a month to meet in Pat Brisson's office to negotiate his new contract.

 

[periferal]

What a juxtaposition: "I'm fine with a total rebuild that will take years" / "not nearly as patient as you"

When is it fair to say a rebuild isn't working? Is Yzerman a subpar GM?

Not sure what you mean here. Not sure if this helps, but I will be patient to do a rebuild if I trust the GM/people in charge. However I will be very impatient with the front office if I don't trust who is running things (see, wang, snow, Lou, etc).

As for the Red Wings...The blueprint for a rebuild usually is usually getting at least one elite superstar (Stamkos, MacKinnon, McDavid, Crosby, Doughty, Kane, etc) that are usually drafted top 3. The Red Wings been bad, but not bad enough as they have not drafted top 3, and have only drafted only once in the top 5 (when Yzerman did hit with Lucas Raymond). They still need need a player who ties it all together and that might be a goalie as they have not solved that position yet. Doesn't mean that Yzerman is a bad GM. He might be, but as so many have pointed out here....Rebuilds don't guarantee shit, as you might not get top picks in good drafts,etc. However Yzerman has drafted well for what he's had, but they still need more talent.

 

[periferal]

Like George McPhee? Remember when he was available and working for the Isles and half the board didn't want him because of the Martin Erat trade? Then it turns out he pulls off genius moves in VGK to turn them into a Cup winner and perennial contender. Whoopsie.

Uhhhhh getting incredibly favorable expansion draft rules is the reason why Vegas is a winner. Also go check McPhee's SEVENTEEN (17) years as GM of the Capitals from 1997-2014 when they won a total of THREE (3) playoff series. There's a reason why the next job he got was with Charles Wang's Islanders.

And in regards to the expansion draft, before you say, "Well. then what about Seattle...?" First, the NHL was prepared for expansion the 2nd time around so didn't leave Seattle with nearly the negotitaing power (see trading Devon Toews to Colorado as a prime example), and while I'm no McPhee fan, he's light years better than Ron Francis who is a black hole of a GM>.

Not exactly apples to apples is it.

 

[YearlyLottery]

Interesting look at Lou's tenure by many. The references to inheriting the Snow roster seemingly leaves out the part about Snow allowing the Islanders best player of the last quarter century to walk out the door with zero in return. The moves made in the wake of that actually set the team up for success. Plenty of people write off the ridiculous way the 21-22 season was handled by the league but it was ludicrous. Overlook the preponderance of injuries or the blame the GM I guess for that as well.

The Snow roster plus Tavares missed the playoffs the two years preceding his arrival but continue to look at his time here as failure.

I think it is fair to look back on Lou and appreciate the fantastic job he did in making this a respectable organization. It is also fair to say they need another fresh face right now.

In order to get this organization back on track they need to knock this hiring out of the park similar to how integral bringing Lou and Trotz was aboard. There is no room for a failure as a hire.

 

[leeroggy]

There's a reason why the next job he got was with Charles Wang's Islanders

Come on
McPhee was hired here because he was great with a wok . . .

 

[Throttle]

Uhhhhh getting incredibly favorable expansion draft rules is the reason why Vegas is a winner. Also go check McPhee's SEVENTEEN (17) years as GM of the Capitals from 1997-2014 when they won a total of THREE (3) playoff series. There's a reason why the next job he got was with Charles Wang's Islanders.

And in regards to the expansion draft, before you say, "Well. then what about Seattle...?" First, the NHL was prepared for expansion the 2nd time around so didn't leave Seattle with nearly the negotitaing power (see trading Devon Toews to Colorado as a prime example), and while I'm no McPhee fan, he's light years better than Ron Francis who is a black hole of a GM>.

Not exactly apples to apples is it.

Just because the rules are favorable doesn’t mean one can execute them well. SEA still had favorable rules, not as favorable as Vegas, but way better than the CLBs, Anaheims of the world.

However, look at the execution - McPhee vs Francis is night and day now and probably from Day 1 through ten years.

 

[Throttle]

He’s ignoring how rare a player with Barzal’s puck possession and speed are. If they find talent to put with him, he’s not stuck relying on no one to make stuff happen. Horvat was a step in the right direction but the team needs 2-4 more quality pieces up front with the rest of the current forwards to really make it work.

I’m not ignoring his puck possession and speed - that’s ok they are ‘rare’ - but how effective are they in the grand scheme of things?

The answer is to always (a) blame Lou (and the soon to be next GM, guaranteed), and (b) he plays with inferior talent.

 

[Throttle]

Agreed! There is something to be said about learning from your mistakes the first time around. Look at Barry Trotz when he left Nashville without a Cup.

The narrative on Barry during his time in Nashville was that he couldn’t win. He won a lot of games because he coached that team forever, but he didn’t move the needle in the playoffs.

My guess is Barry survived so long because he was a good coach, but also that franchise was watching their pennies for years and didn’t want to pay for the turnover- just like Poile was there for years.

 

[miscs75]

I’m not ignoring his puck possession and speed - that’s ok they are ‘rare’ - but how effective are they in the grand scheme of things?

The answer is to always (a) blame Lou (and the soon to be next GM, guaranteed), and (b) he plays with inferior talent.

His best chance of producing was when partnered with Horvat. You can’t expect him to have Wahlstrom and it to work out. Realistically the team surrounded him with essentially 8 bottom 6 forwards with little to no scoring ability and look at how it worked out. This is why a defensive minded system worked and they don’t have the ability to open it up or create chances on the power play.

 

[PK Cronin]

His best chance of producing was when partnered with Horvat. You can’t expect him to have Wahlstrom and it to work out. Realistically the team surrounded him with essentially 8 bottom 6 forwards with little to no scoring ability and look at how it worked out. This is why a defensive minded system worked and they don’t have the ability to open it up or create chances on the power play.

Why do we need to exaggerate who he has been playing with? He wasn't paired with Wahlstrom for any real length of time.

Barzal is a unique talent with value, but he's been difficult for players to have chemistry with during his time here. Eberle, Horvat, Lee, Nelson, Palmieri, etc. are all 30+ goal players and he hasn't managed to find consistency with any of them, except for perhaps Eberle. Their style of game also didn't translate well in the playoffs after the first round. His uniqueness makes him difficult to play with because he wants to hold the puck for extended periods of time and refuses to use his teammates in more routine plays, opting instead to control the puck himself and keep looking for better opportunities. That translates really well to the advanced analytics for him as an individual, he's maintaining possession, he has the puck on his stick, and when there is success he gets points. The problem is, what exactly are the rest of his teammates supposed to be doing when he does these things? There's a limited amount of space in the offensive zone and if you're not using your teammates to move and manipulate the defense then there isn't much that will open up. Add that with his refusal to shoot the puck and his unwillingness to go into the dirty areas to create space for his teammates when he doesn't have the puck, you end up with a difficult player to develop real chemistry with.

He's not lacking in talent, his talent is exactly why he has value, and that's why if you can swap him for an easier player to play with the team might see better results and provide more flexibility. You only move Barzal for a player who has the potential to be better than what he is, but there's obviously a risk in doing that. The team isn't haven't success with him, they can have the same result without him.

As for the strategy of defensive minded compared to offensive minded, there's truth to that. The roster hasn't been good enough to play the open style for nearly his entire tenure here. They also haven't been able to acquire the players necessary for that type of system, how are they suddenly going to do that now? It's going to be a while, and if we're re-setting I'd collect valuable assets for Barzal now rather than later.

 

[Glory Days]

Why do we need to exaggerate who he has been playing with? He wasn't paired with Wahlstrom for any real length of time.

Barzal is a unique talent with value, but he's been difficult for players to have chemistry with during his time here. Eberle, Horvat, Lee, Nelson, Palmieri, etc. are all 30+ goal players and he hasn't managed to find consistency with any of them, except for perhaps Eberle. Their style of game also didn't translate well in the playoffs after the first round. His uniqueness makes him difficult to play with because he wants to hold the puck for extended periods of time and refuses to use his teammates in more routine plays, opting instead to control the puck himself and keep looking for better opportunities. That translates really well to the advanced analytics for him as an individual, he's maintaining possession, he has the puck on his stick, and when there is success he gets points. The problem is, what exactly are the rest of his teammates supposed to be doing when he does these things? There's a limited amount of space in the offensive zone and if you're not using your teammates to move and manipulate the defense then there isn't much that will open up. Add that with his refusal to shoot the puck and his unwillingness to go into the dirty areas to create space for his teammates when he doesn't have the puck, you end up with a difficult player to develop real chemistry with.

He's not lacking in talent, his talent is exactly why he has value, and that's why if you can swap him for an easier player to play with the team might see better results and provide more flexibility. You only move Barzal for a player who has the potential to be better than what he is, but there's obviously a risk in doing that. The team isn't haven't success with him, they can have the same result without him.

As for the strategy of defensive minded compared to offensive minded, there's truth to that. The roster hasn't been good enough to play the open style for nearly his entire tenure here. They also haven't been able to acquire the players necessary for that type of system, how are they suddenly going to do that now? It's going to be a while, and if we're re-setting I'd collect valuable assets for Barzal now rather than later.

Well said PK. The only thing I’ll add is that Barzal’s cycling in the offensive zone often leads to turnovers. Barzal has a tendency to turn away from the play to face the boards at which point he has no player to pass to nor an opportunity to put the puck on net. Marner is another player who likes to cycle and hold the puck. Marner typically puts himself in position to make a pass or shot. Having watched both players extensively it just seems to me that Marner is much more productive on his cycling than Barzal. I don’t see it as a result of the talent around Marner but rather Marner has a much higher hockey IQ than Barzal.

 

[LeapOnOver]

Not sure what you mean here. Not sure if this helps, but I will be patient to do a rebuild if I trust the GM/people in charge. However I will be very impatient with the front office if I don't trust who is running things (see, wang, snow, Lou, etc).

As for the Red Wings...The blueprint for a rebuild usually is usually getting at least one elite superstar (Stamkos, MacKinnon, McDavid, Crosby, Doughty, Kane, etc) that are usually drafted top 3. The Red Wings been bad, but not bad enough as they have not drafted top 3, and have only drafted only once in the top 5 (when Yzerman did hit with Lucas Raymond). They still need need a player who ties it all together and that might be a goalie as they have not solved that position yet. Doesn't mean that Yzerman is a bad GM. He might be, but as so many have pointed out here....Rebuilds don't guarantee shit, as you might not get top picks in good drafts,etc. However Yzerman has drafted well for what he's had, but they still need more talent.

You didn't trust Lou when he was brought in? Who would you trust to run a rebuild?

 

[periferal]

Just because the rules are favorable doesn’t mean one can execute them well. SEA still had favorable rules, not as favorable as Vegas, but way better than the CLBs, Anaheims of the world.

However, look at the execution - McPhee vs Francis is night and day now and probably from Day 1 through ten years.

Totally agree that McPhee >>>>>> Francis. That's not close. Francis is legit terrible.

That said if Vegas and Seattle switched expansion years no way they are where they are today (and Seattle would be better). Teams got very wise about the rules after Vegas and were prepared when Seattle came around to leave them very little scraps while Vegas had a feast.

 

[MikeyMike01]

Uhhhhh getting incredibly favorable expansion draft rules is the reason why Vegas is a winner. Also go check McPhee's SEVENTEEN (17) years as GM of the Capitals from 1997-2014 when they won a total of THREE (3) playoff series. There's a reason why the next job he got was with Charles Wang's Islanders.

And in regards to the expansion draft, before you say, "Well. then what about Seattle...?" First, the NHL was prepared for expansion the 2nd time around so didn't leave Seattle with nearly the negotitaing power (see trading Devon Toews to Colorado as a prime example), and while I'm no McPhee fan, he's light years better than Ron Francis who is a black hole of a GM>.

Not exactly apples to apples is it.

The Islanders and Flames entered the league at the same time, with the same expansion rules. Nine years in, one is mid-dynasty and the other is mid-relocation.

The people in charge matter far more than anything else.

 

[Throttle]

Totally agree that McPhee >>>>>> Francis. That's not close. Francis is legit terrible.

That said if Vegas and Seattle switched expansion years no way they are where they are today (and Seattle would be better). Teams got very wise about the rules after Vegas and were prepared when Seattle came around to leave them very little scraps while Vegas had a feast.

That’s fair. But I disagree on the difference in expansion years. One team orchestrated an aggressive organizational Philosophy to win - that was the owners mandate - it also could have backfired really badly, but it didn’t.

Seattle bc they hired Francis decided on a build until boredom sets in approach. They haven’t been aggressive as that has not been their organizational philosophy.

 

[PK Cronin]

The Islanders and Flames entered the league at the same time, with the same expansion rules. Nine years in, one is mid-dynasty and the other is mid-relocation.

The people in charge matter far more than anything else.

Mid-dynasty is a little strong. They're very good but a long way from that. Even Tampa Bay isn't a dynasty.

Also, they're talking about relocating? I haven't seen that anywhere. Vegas was the beneficiary of being first for sure. It doesn't take away from the job they've done since though.