U20: Lake Placid Tournament, August 1st - 8th

[Ducks Nation*]

Sorry to bother, for those that have seen the games... How has Julius Nättinen looked?

 

[Teukka]

Laine lacks speed/agility.

Puljujarvi lacks finishing ability (the shots that are accurate aren't hard, and vice versa).

Matthews lacks... points in this tournament. As much as I want Pulju and Laine both to rise to #1 overall level, they have less than one year left to surpass Matthews in overall-ness.

In case Pulju/Laine develop a bit better than Matthews does the following year, it will come down to these things:
1.) A centreman is more valuable than a winger. Advantage Matthews. This weighs a ton more than the other points, but isn't an impossible hurdle for Pulju/Laine to overcome. Taylor Hall (LW) was drafted 1st overall over Tyler Seguin (C). Ovechkin (LW) was drafted 1st, Malkin (C) 2nd. It can happen, but is rare. The Finns' following season in Liiga will determine a lot.
2.) Matthews is basically a year older, and thus we should compare 2016 Pulju/Laine to 2015 Matthews. This is probably a point that NHL scouts will not overlook. Advantage Pulju/Laine.
3.) If Arizona gets the #1 pick... Advantage guess-who.
4.) If there is a team stacked at center (???) that needs wingers (especially RW) and lands the #1 pick -> slight advantage Pulju/Laine.

PS. The Laine-Puljujarvi line in this tournament is a waste of resources. If Pulju got to play on a different line, Finland's scoring could be spread out more. Now he's just Laine's passer and puck-to-zone-bringer. I honestly don't understand why Jalonen and crew don't understand this. Yes, the line generates points because of Laine, but there could be a second line generating points because of Puljujarvi. Let's just hope that they at least try something different out before continuing with that all the way into the WJC.

 

[HockeyHistorian]

By the way, Aho (Fin) has had two secondary assists taken away from him, so his point total should already be 2+3. Laine's goal yesterday was assisted by Niku and Aho, not Puljujärvi. Sopanen should have the secondary assist to Lämsä's goal. Niku's goal was assisted by Nättinen. And these are only the mistakes concerning team Finland. Do they have a lottery to decide these stats? The stats in this tournament are all sorts of messed up. At least the goal scorers have been identified correctly thus far (to my knowledge).

 

[JJTT]

https://vid.me/Aeap

Finland's goals from yesterday. Credit to erikfromfin

Sopanen has at least 3 assists in this tournament yet he has 0 according to the stats keepers.

 

[VictorLustig]

By the way, Aho (Fin) has had two secondary assists taken away from him, so his point total should already be 2+3. Laine's goal yesterday was assisted by Niku and Aho, not Puljujärvi. Sopanen should have the secondary assist to Lämsä's goal. Niku's goal was assisted by Nättinen. And these are only the mistakes concerning team Finland. Do they have a lottery to decide these stats? The stats in this tournament are all sorts of messed up. At least the goal scorers have been identified correctly thus far (to my knowledge).

Yeah, the stat-keeping has been pretty bad. Lot's of Swedsh goals missing assists as well. It's just exhibition games though so official points don't carry much importance.

 

[HockeyHistorian]

Yeah, the stat-keeping has been pretty bad. Lot's of Swedsh goals missing assists as well. It's just exhibition games though so official points don't carry much importance.

Correct stats are important to me. I have spent so many hours perusing stats in my life... Maybe that's just the historian in me.

That being said, people will later look at these stats and make all sorts of assumptions based on them. It is not wise, but it will undoubtedly happen. It is likely that the more accurate these stats are, the less inaccurate the assumptions made in the future will be.

EDIT:

Oh my, I looked through the highlights again and noticed that Aho should have been credited with 2+4 in the 10-3 blowout against USA Blue. That would put him at 2+5 on the whole.

 

[Tormentor]

Jake Virtanen is bigger, stronger, and faster than Sam Reinhart, has a better shot, and is 8 months younger. But Sam Reinhart is obviously the superior prospect. This is a very extreme and simplistic example, but the conclusion is the same: hockey sense. Matthews has better hockey sense, better defensive ability, and better hands. He's the better playmaker. And he is simply more valuable for being a center rather than a winger.

Bringing Virtanen to this discussion is truly an extreme and simplistic example, I agree. Laine and Puljujärvi have clearly more skill and better vision, and are already capable of making a bigger impact on the ice than him. Matthews has marginally better hockey sense than Laine and Puljujärvi, but partly that goes with the territory of being older and more experienced. I don't think Matthews' hands or playmaking ability are better than Laine's or Puljujärvi's, at least not to an extent that it would make much of a difference on the ice. Defensively Matthews is smarter as of now, but Laine's and Puljujärvi's strong checking and ability to break up opponents plays is a valuable asset as well. I agree that a centre is in many cases more valuable than a winger.

However, Laine is just clearly not on that level. Matthews is just plainly more talented, smarter, more unselfish, more well-rounded.

Matthews is more well-rounded, but Laine is more talented I think. There's no point in debating which one is more selfish or unselfish, what counts is production and being a winning player. Laine certainly isn't too selfish, especially considering the role he plays in.

I really don't care how they perform in a summer camp, particularly Matthews and Puljujarvi, who know they're locks for their respective teams.

You might not care how these guys perform in a summer camp, but I'm sure scouts do, they wouldn't have flocked to Lake Placid if that wasn't the case.

If your only evidence that your two guys are better than Matthews, you clearly don't understand the importance of sample size.

Matthews wasn't better than Puljujärvi at the World Juniors. Matthews might have been slightly better than Laine and Puljujärvi at the WU18C's, but it was his 2nd tourney at that level, so he had the advantage of being both older and more experienced. Now that the new season is starting up it's obvious that Laine and Puljujärvi have caught up to Matthews and might have even overtaken him.

HÃ¥kan Andersson says that 4 games are usually enough to judge and evaluate a player. Matthews is the least familiar player for me from these 3, but I believe I've seen enough from him during the last two years to form an opinion. Whether my slightly provocative and unpopular opinion about these players turns out to be right or wrong remains to be seen, but at least you can't blame me for going with the flow and being a sheep.

I think it's good to challenge the common way of thinking every now and then, and I think there's merit for that in this case considering how the Lake Placid camp has progressed so far. Is Matthews truly the number one prospect for the upcoming draft?

Laine lacks speed/agility.

Certainly not true anymore.

Puljujarvi lacks finishing ability (the shots that are accurate aren't hard, and vice versa).

Pulju is no Selänne when it comes to finishing his chances, but I believe that the critique over his finishing ability is strongly overexaggerated due to the unlucky streak he had at World Juniors. The kid can put the puck into the net.

 

[Teukka]

Certainly not true anymore.

I have to admit that I unnecessarily compare his skating to Puljujarvi's, which still looks so much smoother and quicker. Emphasis on the word "looks". I might have an untrained eye when it comes to detecting actual speed and acceleration. Perhaps earlier experience makes me see clunkiness that isn't there anymore.

Pulju is no Selänne when it comes to finishing his chances, but I believe that the critique over his finishing ability is strongly overexaggerated due to the unlucky streak he had at World Juniors. The kid can put the puck into the net.

Strongly overexaggerated, yes, but still a "concern" when weighing on the whole "who's to be #1" issue. Or, in other words, compared to Laine.

Now when we put it this way, I basically made unfair comparisons both ways. Laine can't skate like Puljujarvi, Puljujarvi can't shoot like Laine. But I guess not many prospects can do either

 

[Teukka]

Oh my, I looked through the highlights again and noticed that Aho should have been credited with 2+4 in the 10-3 blowout against USA Blue. That would put him at 2+5 on the whole.

Yup, the actual scoring leader of the tournament is Sebastian Aho

 

[HockeyHistorian]

Yup, the actual scoring leader of the tournament is Sebastian Aho

That is unless some of the other players have suffered similarly at the hands of these amateur "statisticians".

 

[thomast]

...

Who is the better prospect for you right now Puljujärvi or Laine?

I remember couple years ago Laine dominating against USA and scored a hat trick. Outplaying Matthews by a mile in that game and in the tournament. He seems to do it again. But most important is to outplay him at WJC.

 

[Tormentor]

Who is the better prospect for you right now Puljujärvi or Laine?

That's a difficult question, both are highly intriguing prospects. Hopefully the upcoming season brings some answers.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

Why was Turgeon put in an offensive role for this game? He's not a talented offensive player and he was a total non-factor tonight. I don't need to see anymore.

Why are they messing around with Schmaltz on the point of the pp again? It didn't work last year and I don't see it working this year. Besides, he should be working to earn some pp time at this point rather than just having it handed to him.

Collins has regressed back to the worst I've seen of him. He brings no mobility, no sense, no offense and no toughness. Why is he still in play here? Werenski is more noticeable on the right side anyway so shift him back over there and be done with it.

Bittner was a huge disappointment in this game and his bad penalties almost sunk the team. I don't feel he is a good enough talent for an offensive role and I don't think he brings the energy or intensity for a depth role. He's on the outside looking in in my mind.

Bracco and Matthews clearly don't work together. You'd think someone from the NTDP would have explained the fact that the two were never slotted together rather than trying something that never worked before.

Matthews has not been 1st overall quality here and I can't argue in his favor in any 2016 prospect debate right now. He should clearly be the best player on the US team but he's just not playing like it. I don't know if it has to do with the uncertainty as to where he's playing next season or the constant linemate rotation but it'd be nice to see him make some kind of statement (ala Eichel's 8 points in two games last year) before the end of the camp. How about they just do something logical like play him with his old linemates Tkachuk and Roslovic?

I get it, these games don't matter, but it'd be nice to believe something is being accomplished with all of this.

IMO, Your assessment is spot on

Collins continues to prove that he doesn't belong, his skating is being exposed, especially on big ice and he plays like a 5'6" guy not a 6'5" guy.
I'd pair Hanafin-Werenski, Belpedio-Carlo as top 4 with Walman- ??? ( Mccloud )
and Fortunato as #7 with some consideration to Chrys.

Schmaltz is being handed every chance in the world and is doing absolutely nothing with them. He should be fighting for a spot instead of being handed gifts.

Matthews is trying to do way to much on his own, he needs to learn to be a team 1st guy , it's not all about him. Larkin should be the best US forward , he's earned that title as of now, excluding Eichel.

I disagree about Bittner, I think he's been really good at what his role is and the penalty coming out of the box was just a freak incident. I knew Ktachuk was good but he's really playing well, impressive. Bracco and Roslovic are just holding the puck way to long. White hasn't done much either. I would guess that they wanted to see what Turgeon had on offensive upside, I don't think they keep both White and Turgeon come December.

Dvorak will have a chance today playing with Bjork and Bittner. I know he's much better than he's shown so far.

Eansor has been a big surprise. I don't think he needs to play center, I'd move him to wing with the logjam at center.

How are the streams on fasthockey ? I'll be buying the next 3 days or do you have to buy the 1 month subscription ?

 

[thomast]

That's a difficult question, both are highly intriguing prospects. Hopefully the upcoming season brings some answers.

How about Tkachuk? Has he impressed you? Who do you like better Grundström or A. Nylander for swedish prospects? I see many scouting agencies listing Nylander in the top 10 and Grundström mid to late first. Grundström have impressed me much more.

 

[Hyzer]

whats the lineup for todays game? anyone know?

 

[William H Bonney]

whats the lineup for todays game? anyone know?

Milano - Larkin - Boeser
Bittner - Dvorak - Bjork
Tkachuk - Eansor - Roslovic
Connor - Turgeon - Bracco
Schmaltz

Werenski - Krys
Walman - Jones
Hanifin - McAvoy
Carlo

Sarthou
Opilka

 

[Hyzer]

Milano - Larkin - Boeser
Bittner - Dvorak - Bjork
Tkachuk - Eansor - Roslovic
Connor - Turgeon - Bracco
Schmaltz

Werenski - Krys
Walman - Jones
Hanifin - McAvoy
Carlo

Sarthou
Opilka

Thank you kind sir.

As a Canadian, I am pretty scared for next years WJC. This years and next's crop for USA is just amazing.

 

[Orvelo]

Milano - Larkin - Boeser
Bittner - Dvorak - Bjork
Tkachuk - Eansor - Roslovic
Connor - Turgeon - Bracco
Schmaltz

Werenski - Krys
Walman - Jones
Hanifin - McAvoy
Carlo

Sarthou
Opilka

Why isn't Matthews playing?

 

[William H Bonney]

Why isn't Matthews playing?

There are still 18 forwards in camp for Team USA, he's a lock for the team, and they want to get a look at different forwards and line combinations. Same reason Larkin sat out yesterday.

 

[Orvelo]

There are still 18 forwards in camp for Team USA, he's a lock for the team, and they want to get a look at different forwards and line combinations. Same reason Larkin sat out yesterday.

Well, that makes sense

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

By the way what will happen, if Team USA can't participate world juniors in Helsinki.
Because of world's political reasons, USA has put sanctions for Russia because of their attack war in Ukraine.

World Juniors medal games will be held in Hartwall Arena, and arenas owners ( Rotenberg Family and Russian businessman Gennady Timtchenko)
Belongs to USA's sanction list.

This means that USA can't keep in touch or any contact those peoples who belongs USA sanction list.
And also if USA makes to Medal games after preliminary round USA can't play their medal games in Hartwall Arena because of those sanctions.

 

[Suurikelmi]

By the way what will happen, if Team USA can't participate world juniors in Helsinki.
Because of world's political reasons, USA has put sanctions for Russia because of their attack war in Ukraine.

World Juniors medal games will be held in Hartwall Arena, and arenas owners ( Rotenberg Family and Russian businessman Gennady Timtchenko)
Belongs to USA's sanction list.

This means that USA can't keep in touch or any contact those peoples who belongs USA sanction list.
And also if USA makes to Medal games after preliminary round USA can't play their medal games in Hartwall Arena because of those sanctions.

This is the most paranoid thing I've ever read in these forums. And therefore one of the most entertaining posts.

 

[William H Bonney]

Fifteen minutes in and Sweden up 1-0. They've been on 4 PPs so far. Specialty teams are huge in the WJC, but I can't imagine they want to practice them this much.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

https://vid.me/Aeap

Finland's goals from yesterday. Credit to erikfromfin

Sopanen has at least 3 assists in this tournament yet he has 0 according to the stats keepers.

Is that Eetu Sopanen? Wasn't he supposed to be pretty good

Also, was Vejdemo sent home? I haven't heard anything about him for a few game

 

[Highlander23]

2-2 after 2 periods !!

Ek Joel Eriksson (power play) ( Jakob Forsbacka-Karlsson)

Jeremy Bracco (even strength)

Noah Hanifin (power play) (Chad Krys, Dylan Larkin)

Dmytro Timashov (even strength)