TSN: Laine cleared to return from Player Assistance Program

[Baksfamous112]

His injuries in 2022/23:
First, see video, returned earlier

Second, ankle sprain, returned earlier
Third, COVID- 19
Fourth, stretching the triceps. Btw, he would probably return but we wanted TOP 3 spot in the draft.

2023/24
First, concussion
Second, illness
Third, broken clavicle, see video


Say me, which injury was chronical?

Doesn’t need to be chronical to have a toll on your body. All those injuries in a span of 2 years will leave a mark.

4th game with the CBJ….

Report: Jackets benched Laine after disrespectful comment toward Larsen

Patrik Laine was benched during his fourth game with the Columbus Blue Jackets after being heard making a disrespectful comment toward then-assistant coach Brad Larsen, according to Brian Hedger of The Columbus Dispatch.The 23-year-old sat out for nearly half of the Jackets' 3-2 victory over the...

thescore.com

Let us all not forget what the “culture” was and how the CBJ were looked at with Tortorella coaching the team just as Laine was brought in to the team.

Blue Jackets' star Patrik Laine criticizes John Tortorella's coaching style

Blue jackets' Laine contradicts what he said in May, shifting blame for offensive woes to former coach John Tortorella in Finnish report.

www.dispatch.com

It’s no coincidence.

But he’s a leader with a great attitude.

 

[VT]

The one who I responded to? Something something Galchenyuk substance abuse, dont want another in Utah?

I only imagine how Waddell wants to get Eller.

 

[Boxscore]

I'm happy for him that he's back and in a better place. Hopefully, he has a long, productive, and healthy career ahead of him, regardless of where he plays.

 

[Viqsi]

Graves
Eller
2nd round pick
Owen Pickering

Laine
Provorov at 50%

Swap out Graves with Petterson.

 

[Viqsi]

But he’s a leader with a great attitude.

That one is well known at HFCBJ for developing absolutely unstoppable irrational grudges against players he doesn't like and Laine is one of them. Ask him about Bobrovsky versus Korpisalo sometime, for example.

 

[Gurglesons]

Swap out Graves with Petterson.

You think Laine is going to return Pettersson, a 2nd round pick and a 1st a few years removed?

I'd do Pettersson for Laine at 50% and a 3rd.

 

[Baksfamous112]

That one is well known at HFCBJ for developing absolutely unstoppable irrational grudges against players he doesn't like and Laine is one of them. Ask him about Bobrovsky versus Korpisalo sometime, for example.

What are you even talking about. I like Bob. Korpi is terrible.

On the flip side, I do remember you crushing anyone who ever said a bad word about Anderson when he was with Columbus and how they could never afford to trade him and was vital to Columbus future and that if he went, he would go only for a superstar C and so on and on…

You’re doing the exact same thing right now with Laine and Jenner.

Anyway, let’s start with some logic. If Laine was a UFA right now, coming off multiple injuries and off the player program assistance and Columbus signed him for 8.7M/year, how would you feel? You probably wouldn’t be happy.

Now imagine on top of that you would have to hand over a first round pick or a good, positive asset (as you requested in this thread), you would probably be flipping out and talking about how your GM is useless and doesn’t know what he’s doing.

That’s what you’re asking from the other teams right now.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I doubt very much BA would want Laine and his baggage. The Coyotes had Galchenyuk and his substance abuse problem, and Utah I'm sure, doesn't want another.

Who said he has one, has he stated that?

 

[Fro]

@VT why do you laugh at the proposal, I made?

The idea being you're not retaining on Laine.

It's a ridiculous proposal and doesn't help CBJ

 

[Viqsi]

You think Laine is going to return Pettersson, a 2nd round pick and a 1st a few years removed?

I'd do Pettersson for Laine at 50% and a 3rd.

No, I think him and Provorov retained might get there. Laine isn't worth that by himself, agreed.

And your second proposal would make me quite happy.

 

[Zbynek]

Swap out Graves with Petterson.

Pens don't need Provorov. But Pettersson for Laine at 50% isn't a bad start.

 

[Amadeus]

He'd be a good fit in Montreal.

 

[Viqsi]

What are you even talking about. I like Bob. Korpi is terrible.

That's exactly why you should ask him.

On the flip side, I do remember you crushing anyone who ever said a bad word about Anderson when he was with Columbus and how they could never afford to trade him and was vital to Columbus future and that if he went, he would go only for a superstar C and so on and on…

You're misremembering. My rhetoric with Anderson started out as that we weren't going to move him at all becuase he was too vital to the team. Then when it became clear he was asking for a giant contract, there was no reason to move him except for the #2C we badly needed or at least someone who could fill that role. We ended up getting Max Domi, who was potentially capable of playing that role. Of course, it didn't work out in the end, but to be fair, neither did Montreal's plans for Anderson, so in that sense the disappointment was balanced.

You’re doing the exact same thing right now with Laine and Jenner.

It's accurate with Jenner and you're overstating it with Laine.

Anyway, let’s start with some logic. If Laine was a UFA right now, coming off multiple injuries and off the player program assistance and Columbus signed him for 8.7M/year, how would you feel? You probably wouldn’t be happy.

For two years as a "prove it" deal, possibly. I'd be looking at the two years he did amazingly in his prior tenure and thinking "okay, this could be good, this could be very bad; cross fingers and hope."

This hypothetical, however, doesn't account for retention. At $4.3/year I'd be thrilled.

Now imagine on top of that you would have to hand over a first round pick or a good, positive asset (as you requested in this thread), you would probably be flipping out and talking about how your GM is useless and doesn’t know what he’s doing.

Given that he's not a UFA, that's the cost of doing business. I fully understand why folks would hesitate. But that doesn't mean the price is any lower.

 

[Marioesque]

Anyway, let’s start with some logic. If Laine was a UFA right now, coming off multiple injuries and off the player program assistance and Columbus signed him for 8.7M/year, how would you feel? You probably wouldn’t be happy.

Yes let's do some logic. Laine doesn't have chronic injuries, they are different things that have happened because hockey is a physical sport. Some would call it luck, logical people call it variance. Assuming his injury rate continues linear is not a logical base.

There is no logic suggesting that Laine will keep getting injured or that his risk is higher than any other players that take as much "attention " on ice. He could keep getting injured, but it's not a rational expectation. It's a possibility but it's still variance. There's an equal chance of him staying healthy and when he is healthy he's really good.

So what you're asking of Columbus is to trade an elite player who could just as well have next 5 full seasons without injuries, to a low pick. This is a player fully capable of winning the rocket if put in a position to do so and has good linemates and proper PP usage. So don't pretend it's logic, you're just irrationally assuming that the injury risk is greater than standard, because he has been injured. That's not really how it works.

If he had a chronical problem, the same injury over and over like Josh Norris for example, that would be a reasonable argument because a reoccurring thing that's been weakened by continuous same issue IS an indication of probable future injuries of the same kind.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's a ridiculous proposal and doesn't help CBJ

It's essentially a contract swap of Eller and Provorov and then Graves, 1st, 2nd for Laine.

No, I think him and Provorov retained might get there. Laine isn't worth that by himself, agreed.

And your second proposal would make me quite happy.

Provorov has no value. The only reason PIT is taking him back is to make space for Graves in CBJ.

Graves shitting the bed last year was still a better defenseman than Provorov.

 

[Viqsi]

Provorov has no value.

Don't be absurd. By that measure nobody in the Pens package has value either.

 

[Gurglesons]

Don't be absurd. By that measure nobody in the Pens package has value either.

You're right. It's a typical swap of bad contracts with PIT adding a 1st and a 2nd because Laine has the most potential in the trade.

 

[Viqsi]

You're right. It's a typical swap of bad contracts with PIT adding a 1st and a 2nd because Laine has the most potential in the trade.

And that's why it doesn't work out. Provorov is the furthest thing from a bad contract. It's a fair attempt because the players involved coming to Columbus are both shutdown types, which is definitely a need here, but presuming our guys have little or no value sinks it.

 

[Gurglesons]

And that's why it doesn't work out. Provorov is the furthest thing from a bad contract. It's a fair attempt because the players involved coming to Columbus are both shutdown types, which is definitely a need here, but presuming our guys have little or no value sinks it.

Then remove Provorov.

Although I’m fine with Pettersson for Laine at 50% and a 3rd as we discussed.

No retention on Laine and a 2nd if CBJ takes back a light contract like Pulju or something. I think that works out cap wise for PIT. But preferably if we are dealing Pettersson, I’d want us to replace him with Kylington which is why I want the retention.

 

[74 others]

Habs are 100% interested.
Caufield is the only quality right handed winger in their entire system and Laine would be perfect with Dach and Demidov going forward because they are mostly playmakers. And there is some urgency because Dach needs someone good to play with next year, Habs have a duty to help him grow as a player.

 

[Viqsi]

Then remove Provorov.

Although I’m fine with Pettersson for Laine at 50% and a 3rd as we discussed.

No retention on Laine and a 2nd if CBJ takes back a light contract like Pulju or something. I think that works out cap wise for PIT. But preferably if we are dealing Pettersson, I’d want us to replace him with Kylington which is why I want the retention.

So long as the contract being taken back doesn't have extra term I imagine we could do that. Puljujarvi looks to me like he's got one year left, right?

 

[Gurglesons]

So long as the contract being taken back doesn't have extra term I imagine we could do that. Puljujarvi looks to me like he's got one year left, right?

Yes. It would be a one year deal. I guess we could just do Pettersson + Eller for Laine + 2nd and be good.

 

[Viqsi]

Yes. It would be a one year deal. I guess we could just do Pettersson + Eller for Laine + 2nd and be good.

Sounds good to me. You call Dubas and I'll reach out to Waddell.

 

[Chainshot]

I wonder if Buffalo comes looking at this since they have the cap space for the 2 years and have a glut of prospects. If the deal is a pick(s) and prospect(s) type, I would think they would be sniffing around it some. The risk is more than my appetite for it, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't look.

 

[CBJx614]

I'm talking about the year where he had 21 points in 45 games while being -29 (11 worse than the next forward). It's funny how you use "entire season" as the standard to determine PPG, yet you use two-half seasons to claim that Laine is a PPG forward. Nice hypocrisy there.

24 pts on 46 games. He started the season in Winnipeg with a 3 pt game before his major injury that kept him out until he returned, at which point he was on a new team...

Idk if you've ever played sports or anything of the sort, but usually it takes some time to learn your place on a roster. Everyone is different, not everyone can be dropped in and instantly mesh with everyone around them.

On top of recovering from an injury that kept him out half of the season, it takes can take a week or two just to get back into the routine of the rigors of traveling and playing in the NHL.

So I'll ask again since you dodged it the first time, how do we know he won't have that same abysmal performance this upcoming season? He'd be on a new team and would have missed 64 games as opposed to the 11 he missed in his first year with the Jackets due to injury and the timing of the trade.

Idk, history?

The only seasons Laine has truly struggled have been seasons when he was struggling with injuries. Which like I just mentioned isn't just a Laine thing, it's hard to gain any consistency and routine when you're going back and forth from being with the team on the road to sitting at home rehabbing. To being dropped back into the middle of it.

And how would you know teams won't care about his inconsistency issues? Are you not a random poster yourself? If the outliers are minimal, why is his career production not close to PPG? He was at a 67-point pace with the Jets and then 65 points with the Jackets, a career average of 66 which is far from PPG.

You're comparing two different metrics. You're comparing pts/season to points per game. Those aren't the same thing.



Rookie year - 73 gp - 64p = .87 PPG
Sophmore year - 82 gp - 70p = .85 PPG
3rd year - 82 gp - 50p - .60 PPG (down year)
4th year - 68 gp - 63p - .92 PPG
5th year - 1 gp - 3 p - 3 PPG
Average with the Jets .8 PPG

Trade

5th year - 45 gp - 21p - .46 PPG(down / injury year)
6th year - 56 gp - 56p - 1 PPG
7th year - 55 gp - 52p - .94 PPG
8th year - 18 gp - 9p - .5 PPG (down / injury year)

Average with CBJ .81 PPG


Career avg of .79 PPG

If you take out his two injury riddled seasons(64 games, 33pts .51ppg ) he's an .85ppg player for the other 416 games he's played.

Except for the seasons where he hasn't and there are a couple of them. Not sure why you're downplaying the 18 games he had this past season too, even if it's only 18 games, it's still nearly a quarter of a season which for a player who isn't dependable to play a lot of games is not something to ignore. His "outliers" are horrid.

Do you think teams will only look at his best seasons while ignoring all his other flaws, extremely expensive contract, and uncertainty of being able to play a good chunk of the season?

You don't have to look at his best seasons. This is a business, he gets paid what he does because his ability to points on the board. He didn't get paid because he only is a 60-70 pt guy and GMs just love him and want to give him a bunch of money, he's paid 8.7M/season because when he's healthy he's scoring at a .85ppg pace.

So tell me, what's the outlier? .51 over 64 games or .85 over 416 games?



Hence why he's paid 8.7M/season




Look, I'm not trying to say that he's going to rebound and perfectly healthy and everything will be fine. Or that He's going to have some massive trade haul. He's had injury issues over the last 4 seasons. But his ability to produce over those last 4 years hasn't changed. I would wager a ton of GMs think they if they can get him and he can stay healthy they can add a top line or top 6 talent for cheap right now. But it's up to Waddell to get what he's worth. And he's already said as much and if they don't get that value he's going to just keep him.

Doesn’t need to be chronical to have a toll on your body. All those injuries in a span of 2 years will leave a mark.


But he’s a leader with a great attitude.

If only there was someone else in the league who had a few years of not being able to stay healthy but was able to take the necessary extra time to let their body fully heal...

Oh wait there is. His name is Sean Monahan. He himself admitted he kept trying to rush back from injury instead of taking the necessary extra time to let his body heal. He did that and he went from being packaged with a first to get rid of him, to being worth a first.


Obviously Monahans injuries and Laine's injuries are different and their bodies are different. But the point remains Laine taking some extra time to mentally and physically (shoulder cleanup) recover could actually help in the long run.