Sportsnet: Kris Versteeg says "Toronto needs to trade for a third line Center" (Said it 3 times!)

[sparxx87]

People can keep saying this but it doesn't make it true.

Teams that win have a 3rd line they can rely on at both ends of the ice. Go back and watch all the cup finals from last year until you get it.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Teams that win have a 3rd line they can rely on at both ends of the ice. Go back and watch all the cup finals from last year until you get it.

And who do you think our 3rd line is right now?

 

[sparxx87]

Jenner's positioning and ability to play within a system is miles ahead of Kadri's. If Kadri's shadowing a line of Scrub-McDavid-Scrub, he can do a good job on him. If Edmonton loads up McDavid-Draisaitl on the same line, they're going to surgically pick Kadri apart easily when he overcommits to one of them. He doesn't have the skating or defensive awareness to do what we need from our 3C which is to play a quiet game against star players to open up soft offensive minutes for the top-6 and chip in on the PK.

For the record I'd take Jenner over Kerfoot, although I'd want to watch a few more games to be sure his skating is consistently good enough to do what we need him to.

Kadri is usually solid in a matchup situation. Not sure what you mean about over committing - he isn’t going to defend them one on two. He can shadow his check and frustrate them more often than not.

Jenner is a massive upgrade over Kerfoot.

 

[sparxx87]

And who do you think our 3rd line is right now?

I don’t think Keefe even knows. He’s tried several different combinations and hasn’t found one he likes from what I see.

Pretty sure it was Mikheyev-Engvall-Hyman last night although I wasn’t paying close attention as I usually do. Whatever it was, I know what Kerfoot and Engvall are, and neither are good enough.

 

[sparxx87]

Funny thing is that Kadri actually gets more sheltered usage on Colorado even though he's "second line center".

Regardless, I don’t think there’s any debate who the better player is, even if the puck has gone in on one more than the other this year.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Kadri is usually solid in a matchup situation. Not sure what you mean about over committing - he isn’t going to defend them one on two. He can shadow his check and frustrate them more often than not.

Jenner is a massive upgrade over Kerfoot.

Again, he gets scored on more than Kerfoot despite playing weaker competition with 55% offensive zone starts. He's not good at playing preventative zone defense like you need to against a line where all 3 members are smarter and faster than him, he doesn't have the skating or IQ for it. Even if he sacrifices his positioning to take himself and the other center out of the play, Marchand/Pasta are happy to take that trade along with the extra space in the offensive zone it opens up.

Kerfoot's not ideal but he's better suited for doing the specific job we need him to do. If we needed an all-around offensive top-6er and PP presence, obviously Kadri would be better.

 

[sparxx87]

Again, he gets scored on more than Kerfoot despite playing weaker competition with 55% offensive zone starts. He's not good at playing preventative zone defense like you need to against a line where all 3 members are smarter and faster than him, he doesn't have the skating or IQ for it. Even if he sacrifices his positioning to take himself and the other center out of the play, Marchand/Pasta are happy to take that trade along with the extra space in the offensive zone it opens up.

Kerfoot's not ideal but he's better suited for doing the specific job we need him to do. If we needed an all-around offensive top-6er and PP presence, obviously Kadri would be better.

Again, I’m not suggesting Kadri is an elite defensive player, but he had his best years utilized as a matchup centre. Some of his most memorable performances came against elite centres including McDavid whose both faster and smarter. Not sure why you don’t put more value in a player that can not only keep Sidney Crosby off the board, but frustrate him into taking a dumb penalty.

Kerfoot is soft as butter and brings little more than speed to the table. He’s not a good 3rd line centre. He should be a 2C somewhere where he’s the 6th best top 6 forward. That would be more ideal than trying to be support when the Matthews and Tavares lines are off.

 

[zeke]

Teams that win have a 3rd line they can rely on at both ends of the ice. Go back and watch all the cup finals from last year until you get it.

Yeah we have two of those 3rd lines right now.

 

[zeke]

Regardless, I don’t think there’s any debate who the better player is, even if the puck has gone in on one more than the other this year.

Possibly.

But our team has lost nothing offensively with the swap, yet gained defensively.

 

[sparxx87]

Yeah we have two of those 3rd lines right now.

I don’t agree, and I wouldn’t rely on many ‘blasts from the past’ from Spezza in the playoffs. They’d be great, but that’s not something I’m banking on.

Possibly.

But our team has lost nothing offensively with the swap, yet gained defensively.

Hard to say. A lot has changed, it’s not just 1 in and 1 out.

I found this team incredibly underwhelming in their most important 5 games of the year last year, and they haven’t really faced any top competition this year. They haven’t played a team that can dominate below the dots, which is who they typically struggle against.

I’d like to evaluate them against the top teams which unfortunately COVID division has prevented.

 

[seanlinden]

Again, he gets scored on more than Kerfoot despite playing weaker competition with 55% offensive zone starts. He's not good at playing preventative zone defense like you need to against a line where all 3 members are smarter and faster than him, he doesn't have the skating or IQ for it. Even if he sacrifices his positioning to take himself and the other center out of the play, Marchand/Pasta are happy to take that trade along with the extra space in the offensive zone it opens up.

Kerfoot's not ideal but he's better suited for doing the specific job we need him to do. If we needed an all-around offensive top-6er and PP presence, obviously Kadri would be better.

I don't think the need for a Kadri over Kerfoot (especially on the Leafs) are going to show up anywhere on a stat sheet.

It was always about the game beneath the game... the hits, the frustration, getting underneath opponents skin, playing on the edge combined with the scoring threat he could bring. They went up against Boston, and gave Boston, who was largely a 1-line team, an impossible choice... face Matthews and hope that you beat him more than Tavares-Marner and Kadri's line beat you, face Tavares-Marner in a best-on-best matchup, while leaving the best goalscorer on the ice without Bergeron out there; or try and get into a physical battle with Kadri.

Kerfoot is a technically fine defensive centre, but he doesn't really do anything, and doesn't face the top matchups. In the playoffs, it seems likely they're going to run into the Jets and/or Habs, and they're going to need somebody who can frusturate a Schiefle or Dubois, or a real 3rd line scoring threat.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I don't think the need for a Kadri over Kerfoot (especially on the Leafs) are going to show up anywhere on a stat sheet.

It was always about the game beneath the game... the hits, the frustration, getting underneath opponents skin, playing on the edge combined with the scoring threat he could bring. They went up against Boston, and gave Boston, who was largely a 1-line team, an impossible choice... face Matthews and hope that you beat him more than Tavares-Marner and Kadri's line beat you, face Tavares-Marner in a best-on-best matchup, while leaving the best goalscorer on the ice without Bergeron out there; or try and get into a physical battle with Kadri.

Kerfoot is a technically fine defensive centre, but he doesn't really do anything, and doesn't face the top matchups. In the playoffs, it seems likely they're going to run into the Jets and/or Habs, and they're going to need somebody who can frusturate a Schiefle or Dubois, or a real 3rd line scoring threat.

Again Kerfoot isn't my first choice for the job, but if we're talking about getting minutes against Schief/Dubois and coming out roughly even then he's probably better at that job with the wingers he has than Kadri is, even if he agitates them less. I'd want Matthews going up against Kadri, he's much better when someone pisses him off, I think Dubois was similar in the Columbus series.

To me the risk/reward of Kadri's hits agitating someone into playing worse and/or riling our team up vs him getting suspended for the series isn't enough of a reason to care about the marginal upgrade he is on Kerfoot in terms of their purely on-ice results at 3C/PP.

Again, Kerfoot isn't my first choice for the job but he does mediocre enough at it to not care. I don't see a situation where Kadri over Kerfoot is the difference in a series in a positive way. Ideally I'd want someone who can create more offense than either of them in a 3rd line role.

 

[Stephen]

He’s right. If we were able to get a Charlie Coyle type rental we would be looking very strong.

 

[hotpaws]

it's funny people are still pimping Kerfoot while he gets kicked up and down the lineup due to Keefe trying top find a spot where he doesn't look useless

also funny some are still trying to say he's better than Kadri

the funniest thing however is Dubas has been trying to dump him since the offseason but no will take this overpaid stiff

 

[zeke]

He’s right. If we were able to get a Charlie Coyle type rental we would be looking very strong.

Coyle's scoring at a 25pt pace and has by far the worst impact metrics of any bruin top9 forward.

 

[Stephen]

Coyle's scoring at a 25pt pace and has by far the worst impact metrics of any bruin top9 forward.

No, like the version of Coyle the year the Bruins got him as a rental for Ryan Donato and a 4th and helped them to game 7 of the finals with a productive playoff.

 

[AcerComputer]

Just trade for Bergeron and call it a day!

 

[sittler rules!!!]

You made a typo but are you saying they should deal Kerfoot? I've actually found him pretty good on wing. He's been solid on the forecheck this season and has been noticeable battling for pucks in the corner. I think he could be missed if you get the wrong return.

If he went in a package to get Hall 50% retained I wouldn't be angry.

Who else did you have in mind to trade him for?

Have they tried Kerfoot with 34 and 16 (the M &M's)? And I am starting to like Engvall with Hyman and Soup. It appears to me it is confidence and the odd brain cramp, but he is growing into the role. I think I read somewhere he is at 55% on faceoffs. He can skate and is starting to grind. He is looking more and more comfortable. This line might suit his game.

 

[The90]

Kadri is usually solid in a matchup situation. Not sure what you mean about over committing - he isn’t going to defend them one on two. He can shadow his check and frustrate them more often than not.

Jenner is a massive upgrade over Kerfoot.

I would be pumped if he were able to squeeze Jenner. Big skating power forward who’s hard to play against, and a c. Checks both boxes.a very good fit for what the leafs lack.

 

[Spirit of 67]

I'm assuming you are asking about Kadri? He was moved as a result of running out of chances with management. He had run in's with nearly every coach, he had internal suspensions, and Shanahan personally called him out for a lack of maturity. This was even before the playoff suspensions. He created a situation where he had to be moved. We got the best price we could, for a publicly known damaged asset. People seem to ignore this on a regular basis though.

People also don't understand that it wasn't just the 2 suspensions against Boston but he also had his 2015/16 season cut short with a season ending suspension.
3 year enders in 4 years is likely to get you chased out of town.

But these facts don't matter in the face of hurt feelings.

 

[zeke]

Most recent cup-winning 3rd line centers


Y.Gourde 5'9" 170
T.Bozak 6'1" 195
L.Eller 6'2" 205
N.Bonino 6'1" 195
A.Shaw 5'11" 180

 

[Once]

It appears that we have two third lines based on recent lineups.

 

[Once]

Most recent cup-winning 3rd line centers


Y.Gourde 5'9" 170
T.Bozak 6'1" 195
L.Eller 6'2" 205
N.Bonino 6'1" 195
A.Shaw 5'11" 180

I've wondered if we could get Bozak with 50% retention, perhaps with salary going the other way? Maybe Engvall, if that would fit, or Kerfoot. However, Bozak's defensive game was pretty average when he was here and that may be a redundant move if anything else.

Quite honestly...I am satisfied with what we have. Would rather add without subtraction.

 

[zeke]

I've wondered if we could get Bozak with 50% retention, perhaps with salary going the other way? Maybe Engvall, if that would fit, or Kerfoot. However, Bozak's defensive game was pretty average when he was here and that may be a redundant move if anything else.

Quite honestly...I am satisfied with what we have. Would rather add without subtraction.

yeah no thanks to bozak.

 

[ITM]

People also don't understand that it wasn't just the 2 suspensions against Boston but he also had his 2015/16 season cut short with a season ending suspension.
3 year enders in 4 years is likely to get you chased out of town.

But these facts don't matter in the face of hurt feelings.

From a pure assets management standpoint, I think the trade holds up. I don't think it was poor judgement at the time and the potential for success was certainly there (i.e. Barrie in Edmonton).Kadri's playoffs success wasn't foreseen.

But, I don't think the internal disciplinary element is as widely discussed (or known) as the disciplinary action received from the league. The distinction matters. Moreover when balanced against the (right) perception that there was a double-standard when playing Boston. It's understandable why some might be confused by the decision to move Kadri.