Kraken 2024 Offseason chatter
- Thread starter Fistfullofbeer
- Start date
i seen some discussion that we should give daccord as part of a trade packages for Marner...
Sad People
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Considering we are locked into Gru i think id entertain that idea. Sucks losing him but we need legit talent on this team which Marner brings. Not to mention having him with Matty would help him significantly.
Given how we been playing both our goalies in terms of games played. I see that as a mistake since we would have to sign someone and relay on said player to perform. There aren't exactly a great talent pool available for goalies. Acquiring a player to make 1 area stronger while making another area weaker isn't exactly a great idea. We do not have a well developed goalie pool in the organization to make that kind of move. Usually when teams trade goalies they have someone up and coming to replace him. We don't yet. The last thing we want to potentially make us weaker at goalie when we finally starting to see both our starter and back up performing good.
RainyCityHockey
Registered User
Would be an interesting idea and what the Kraken need, elite talent.
Like @majormajor said it would be costly and not just in terms of picks and prospects cause the Leafs still will want to compete and need roster playeres in return.
The problem could be them asking for someone like McCann and trading him(in a package with other things) would would ship out the only somewhat high end finisher we have.
That wouldn't be a great thing given that you would've just brought in an elite set up guy without having much of a finisher on the roster.
If it would be Bjorkstrand, Larsson(ideally you would love that to be Oleksiak but you've got to give some to get some) and a pick/prospect I wouldn't mind that.
At least you'd take a direction and as nice of a player Bjorkstrand is, he's still a middle six winger that could be replaced.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
Do you have any suggestions at all to make the roster better? You nix every suggestion on roster moves but do not come back with alternatives.
Sad People
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At some point this team needs high end talent. And with the way the current team is set up it looks like it wont be coming through the draft. If we could theoretically get an elite talent for a middle 6 winger or a 1B goalie (And then some) id do it in an instant.
Hard, but not impossible. The problem is there is little incentive for upper management to do anything because they will make carloads of money no matter what they do. Even with exorbitant ticket prices for the playoffs and regular season games and virtual sell-outs, or close to it, nearly every night, the cash keeps rolling in. If I remember correctly something like 16,000 of the 19,000 seats go to season ticket holders with almost no turn over from season to season. So the Leafs may tinker with lesser lights or fire coaches before they trade one of the big three. If they get rid of anybody, they might try to offload Taveres for his last season.
Plus, the price for Marner would be super exorbitant. I think they would demand an unprotected first, a star player (Dunn, maybe, as an eventual replacement for Rielly), and one of our best prospects (possibly whom we pick this year). Then there is 92 million or so that we would have to commit to an eight year contract. I have to think a player who will score a few less goals per year would come at a way cheaper cost.
That gives us an actually top line since the only alternate is developing our prospects. The issue is more of a me problem where people just aren't explaining their suggestions good enough for me to be willing to entertain the idea. All i have seen is we should acquire this gut acquire that guy with out explaining what do we do to fill those holes or gaps in terms of our prospect pool just for the sake of an actual top line never mind how can we afford in the long term in order to keep players.
I just never seen an explanation of how will Seattle make it work to make it worth such a move worth doing. The last thing we should do is make the team as a whole weaker just to solve 1 problem.
Its a fine balance between star talent and depth and fit all of that under the cap.
Depending on what else is involved I might be okay with including D'Accord. But having Gru or not is irrelevant. If Gru is not a starting goalie then it doesn't matter what he is paid, we're stuck with him but we still need another goalie regardless.
I think players like Bjorkstrand and Larsson are really hard to get. Half the teams in the league are trying to get players like that (a playdriving winger and a strong all around shutdown RD).
But Marner is more of a building block piece so I might still be talked into it.
I actually think a McCann type sniper is easier to get than Bjorkstrand or Larsson. In any case, McCann is not what the Leafs would be after.
I read a lot of different team boards from time to time and everyone is always making comments like this. And it always looks like a silly comment to me.
I bet our management are sweating bullets thinking about what a few years of losing will do to our not exactly locked in fanbase.
Scomerica
Registered User
I think we are stuck with gru. Only way I see us moving daccord on if is they think Kokko is for real and an nhl'er which we are still a little away from finding out.
I think it's a long term argument - you add Marner and you've got a forward core around him with Wright and Beniers. He could make them pop as centers. It's thinking about long term building block pieces, not just next year. I don't think we're going to be good next year regardless of any Marner trade.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
I would think most of our assets would be on the table for Marner. The only roster players I would not give up are:
Beniers
Wright
Bjorkstrand
Larsson
McCann
Evans
Dunn
All prospects on the table. Any picks from this season and the next including the 1st rounder (top-3 lottery protected). There are certainly pieces that could be of interest to the Leafs like Gourde, Borgen, Oleksiak. And we could also retain if that helps.
This is going to be a quality for quantity trade but the quantity will definitely need to involve some decent pieces. The only reason we could get away without giving up our core pieces is because the Leafs have being a laughing stock with these 1st round exits and their managements hand may be forced to trade away either Marner or Tavares. Marner still is young enough for other teams to take a chance, Tavares not so much. You give it you best shot and go from there.
Beniers
Wright
Bjorkstrand
Larsson
McCann
Evans
Dunn
All prospects on the table. Any picks from this season and the next including the 1st rounder (top-3 lottery protected). There are certainly pieces that could be of interest to the Leafs like Gourde, Borgen, Oleksiak. And we could also retain if that helps.
This is going to be a quality for quantity trade but the quantity will definitely need to involve some decent pieces. The only reason we could get away without giving up our core pieces is because the Leafs have being a laughing stock with these 1st round exits and their managements hand may be forced to trade away either Marner or Tavares. Marner still is young enough for other teams to take a chance, Tavares not so much. You give it you best shot and go from there.
Sad People
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It is very much so more about the long term play. Im personally not attached to a 29 y/o middle 6 winger even if he is one of my favorite players.
Bjorkstrand as much as i like him doesnt seem to be apart of our future when this team is truly ready to contend. Atleast imo.
I think if you're taking all of these pieces off the table:
Beniers
Wright
Bjorkstrand
Larsson
McCann
Evans
Dunn
Then we're getting easily outbid. A lot of clubs will want Marner and the cap is jumping up a lot. The Leafs will want win now pieces in return, we can't make up for it in prospects.
Sad People
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These are really the only guys who i view as untouchable. Losing Larsson stinks but hes also getting up there in age, same with Bjorkstrand.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
Thats fair.
Have a talk with Larsson this season about extending. If he is not interested, I am ok putting him in the same group as above. I would reluctantly add Bjorkstrand to that list but again, it would depend on how the entire package would look like.
The Toronto franchise has now completed Year Eight of the Matthews era, and, since acquiring Tavares, have yet to make a significant move to alter team chemistry. If change comes this year, it will because Shanahan is either fired or demoted significantly. If he stays, there is a good chance not much is done, just like every past year of this regime.
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I think the Leafs failing early in the playoffs every year has to be terribly embarrassing for Shanahan and company, they're just kind of stuck and don't know how to get out of it.
I made an armchair GM roster to play around with the Marner idea.
Bjorkstrand plus Larsson remains my best guess as to what it would take. They want win-now players that have something they need in a playoff series - in this case an all-around shutdown RD and a playdriving scorer.
$6m x 6 for Beniers
$4m x 4 for Wennberg. I could have gone for a cheaper center but I think Wenny fits our needs very well.
$2.5m x 2 for Tolvanen
$1.1m x 1 for Tatar
$5.2m x 5 for Dylan DeMelo, a top pair replacement for Larsson, DeMelo has been excellent with Josh Morrissey.
Burakovsky - Wright* - Marner
McCann - Beniers - Eberle
Kartye - Gourde - Tolvanen
Schwartz - Wennberg - Tanev
Tatar
Dunn - DeMelo
Evans - Borgen
Dumoulin - Oleksiak
Fleury
D'Accord
Grubauer
*I don't think Wright is ready to be a 1C. But as a shooter who doesn't like to carry the puck, he seems like the perfect player to pair Marner with, and you might as well list that line 1st. They will get easier zone starts than Beniers line.
Not a great lineup, it might make the playoffs, it might not. If we acquire Marner it won't be for a run next season, it will be a long term play. We have a lot of bad contracts expiring in the next couple years that we'll have to wait out, and if we replace them with the right players we could take a big step.
Bjorkstrand plus Larsson remains my best guess as to what it would take. They want win-now players that have something they need in a playoff series - in this case an all-around shutdown RD and a playdriving scorer.
$6m x 6 for Beniers
$4m x 4 for Wennberg. I could have gone for a cheaper center but I think Wenny fits our needs very well.
$2.5m x 2 for Tolvanen
$1.1m x 1 for Tatar
$5.2m x 5 for Dylan DeMelo, a top pair replacement for Larsson, DeMelo has been excellent with Josh Morrissey.
Burakovsky - Wright* - Marner
McCann - Beniers - Eberle
Kartye - Gourde - Tolvanen
Schwartz - Wennberg - Tanev
Tatar
Dunn - DeMelo
Evans - Borgen
Dumoulin - Oleksiak
Fleury
D'Accord
Grubauer
*I don't think Wright is ready to be a 1C. But as a shooter who doesn't like to carry the puck, he seems like the perfect player to pair Marner with, and you might as well list that line 1st. They will get easier zone starts than Beniers line.
Not a great lineup, it might make the playoffs, it might not. If we acquire Marner it won't be for a run next season, it will be a long term play. We have a lot of bad contracts expiring in the next couple years that we'll have to wait out, and if we replace them with the right players we could take a big step.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
Lots of reservations with this plan.
- Signing a 30 year old D-man on a 5 year contract makes me uncomfortable.
- No way Tolvanen takes 2.5M. I bet he could easily get 4M in arbitration.
- Why would Tatar want to re-sign here after the way he was used?
- Marner better come with an extension since he is due to be a UFA at the end of 24-25.
- I doubt Wennberg wants to be utilized as a 4C on a team.
I'm not crazy about getting Wennberg back, period. The moves seems like a regression or a lack of imagination. He is not a piece of Kraken history worth repeating, and there must be somebody out there who will fit the role just as well.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
Honestly, I have reservations against getting Marner altogether. No arguing that he is an elite offensive talent but giving up Bjorkstrand and Larsson would cost a lot and gut the team defense. I would just throw money at Guentzel or Reinhart in FA instead. Not quite Marner level but they are also known producers on offense.
Agree on Wennberg, if we are going to try to go back to mediocrity then don't spend any money and leave the roster as is for the upcoming season.
Fuhrious
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Re-signing Wennberg? Jfc can we not just let players move to other teams without all the angst and hand-wringing every single time? Why are people so eager to run it back with a team thats now two years older and basically rode an emotional underdog vibe and a wildly unrealistic shooting % to a couple rounds of playoffs? Is that really what people consider this team’s ceiling?
I was just modeling how Marner would fit, I didn't intend to get in a debate about every little thing. But suffice it to say, we're going to need to spend money to get a top pair RD and a veteran shutdown center.
Wennberg is just penciled at 4C because those are linemates he clicked with, you could order it however you want. I would expect him to play a lot if he returned here. He's a good defensive center and we'll need someone to take hard minutes. Gourde is aging out. With two young centers, the coach is going to quit the team if he doesn't have a veteran shutdown option. If you have a different center that you prefer for that role, I'd be curious about that player. I know Wennberg is good at the role.
We're either keeping Larsson and giving him a long extension (he's 31), or signing DeMelo for a lot of years, or signing some other established D for a lot of years, or signing short term some non-established D that we think can step up. This is not an easy puzzle. I know I would take DeMelo, but I'd be curious if you have a better idea. Not signing veterans is overly risk averse, you're guaranteeing that you won't have a good team if you take that approach.
Yes Marner extends, that is part of the premise of any Marner trade discussion, here or elsewhere. It's a hypothetical.
